Comment on YSK: That nazis Don't Actually Believe in Free Speech

• Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It depends on the source of the consequences.

  Social consequences? Completely fine, even desirable.

  Legal consequences? This is where trouble starts and freedom of speech is no longer given.

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• VisionScout@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  They are not free however from consequences, i.e. getting hit in the mouth,

  I would say that this is wrong. If you get hit in the mouth for something you say, than it’s not freedom of speech. It’s the law of the strongest.

  Example: You wouldn’t hit a UFC fighter for something he said to you on a 1 to 1, however you would beat him if you are 10 against him. This is the law of the strongest.

  I don’t believe in absolut free speech. I think that it needs to have limits in it (very well defined limits), and there should be consequences for certain things. And the consequences need to be enforced in a way to counter them, like for example if you say hate crap then you should be forced to contribute to anti-hate orgs.

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• tenton01@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  This is the real takeaway. Freedom of speech is the freedom to say anything. That’s it. You can just say it. It does not protect you from the consequences. It’s an important distinction to make, and I’m glad to see other people making that point.

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  • piecat@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Counterpoint:

    You can say anything in an authoritarian state, the consequences are that you’ll get disappeared in the night.

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    • tenton01@lemm.ee ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Your argument is… valid. Everyone, we’ve just established worldwide freedom of speech! Put this in the history books!

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      • angrystego@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        The argument means that if there are severe systematic consequences to some things you say, then it cannot be considered free speech.

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• drislands@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I guess the primary difference is between legally free speech versus socially free speech. The argument being that the government shouldn’t stop you from slinging slurs, while you have absolutely no right to not be ostracized/shunned/shamed by your fellow man.

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  • segabased@lemmy.zip ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I also think while yelling racial slurs should not be illegal, organizing and mobilizing under a racist ideology that promises to eliminate free speech should be criminalized. The tricky part is doing it in a way that won’t be abused ie calling things that aren’t racist and supremacist ideology those things to criminalize them.

    If only there was an art vs porn emergency button encoded into the law. You just know it when you see it and can call things what they are

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• kjetil@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  100% this. The freedom to say anything also does not entail the right to be listened to. Nobody is required to platform “undesirable” speech. Getting banned from a platform is a perfectly acceptable consequence.

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• zloubida@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I disagree. Free speech should have limits, like every other freedom, because freedoms oppose each others. Insults, defamation, threats, calls for hatred, lies, … shouldn’t be covered by free speech.

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  • Raiderkev@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Like it or not, that’s been the interpretation since the founding of the US. It is not the case in some other countries, but I’m assuming we are talking about the US here. What most people miss is it only restricts the government from punishing your speech, not private entities. Insults, defamation, and lies, are absolutely allowed, but you can be found liable civilly for any damage done by this speech either through punitive damages (lawsuit settlement) or other means, deplatforming, loss of employment, etc.

    threats, calls for hatred, are a bit of a gray area. It depends on the severity of the threat, but true threats can be prosecuted.

    Hate speech is generally allowed, but if it is inciteful enough to be a true threat, it too can be prosecuted.

    If you’d like to read up on true threats, see below:

    law.georgetown.edu/…/True-Threats-Guidance-3.pdf

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    • zloubida@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Oh I know more or less how the American law works. But I think it’s a bad one, that’s all.

      I’m French, and in France hate speech is illegal. Negation of crimes against humanity is illegal. Defamation is illegal. And you know what? France is still a free country. Freer even maybe, as our other freedoms and rights (like our rights to live peacefully) are more protected.

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