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Comment on The one drawback to walking at night

Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

I’m tired of feeling alienated for being male. I’m tired of the default consideration for what a man is being a rapist and a murderer; someone dangerous not to be implicitly trusted; someone you should own a gun to protect yourself from. I’m tired of being labelled a cis man because saying just man would imply that trans men could ever be monsters like us. I go out wearing a skirt and heels and I am trusted, women approach me, give me compliments, ask me for directions. I go out without shaving and am embraced by callousness. If I could ask one thing, if you wouldn’t be comfortable using the word “brother,” “father,” “son,” “boyfriend” or “husband,” don’t use the word “man” or “men.” Use another word. A murderer doesn’t have to be tied to their gender.

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Snowclone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Imagine if you had to deal with actually being targeted as a minority or woman. You’d be so mad, dude.

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- Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I’m a guy who dresses like a girl. I get cat called, threatened to be raped and then called a faggot and thrown into a position where I have to physically defend myself. Yet as you have so eloquently shown people who aren’t horny for me, see me as a man first. My privilege is assumed and as such I am not granted the community that the above white woman automatically receives. I am fucking mad. You’re looking at injustice passively, like it’s my fault.
  
  Where is your fucking anger?
  
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  - _lunar@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You dress like a girl, experience what most female-presenting people experience, and you still don’t fucking understand. Amazing. Tell me, was it women cat calling you and threatening to rape you? Or was it other men? If so, this bigotry wasn’t bigotry against men, it was bigotry against a man who isn’t masculine enough for other men’s standards. Bigotry against a man thought to be a woman by other men. The problem once again remains toxic masculinity manifested in men, or to put it simply, men.
    
    I’m angry for the discrimination you’ve experienced, but I’m not directing it toward women who are speaking about experiencing the same things you have at the hands of men, the way you are in this thread.
    
    Your problem is that you are assuming when we say “men” we’re including you and literally every other man in existence. Words have meanings and there’s a reason why we’re not specifically using “all.”
    
    You’re not going to be treated well for being feminine-presenting until misogyny is defeated, and that isn’t going to happen until guys like you stop being dismissive of women’s experiences because you get defensive on behalf of all men for no fucking reason.
    
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    Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I don’t blame men for it because it’s not mens fault it’s that fuckers fault. You don’t understand and you don’t even want to. I don’t blame women for harassing me and refusing service to me when I’m trying to buy clothes. You know who I blame. I blame that fucker.
    
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  - Snowclone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I’m not angry at women for fearing violent abuse from men. I think you’re misdirecting this A LOT. If as a person you hear ‘‘men might kill me’’ and you think ‘‘poor poor men, why can’t they catch a break’’ your problem isn’t passive adittudes to bigotry, it’s having no idea that other people have problems and fears and threats and they are as upset about them as you would be in their shoes.
    
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    Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    My problem is going up to men and proclaiming “men might kill me” and expecting that to go over well. Like let me just walk up to someone transgender and exclaim “transgender people might rape my children.” That is objectively such a horrific thing to say. But no one cares when you say it about men. Because a man obviously will actually kill you 🙄
    
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KomfortablesKissen@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
You are not alone in feeling that. Everyone being angry about this in here probably feels the same. And it’s incredibly ingenuine to on one hand say this post communicates feelings about fear of going outside and/or men, while simultaneously dismissing feelings of anger at being called a murderer.

My own comment being dismissive of this post (because it’s a shitpost, that’s the literal community here) was deleted.

Another one where I say “women lie” is being downvoted and it was (softly) implied I’m a murderer for saying this (The comment says “You are the man we are afraid of”, context is “men like to murder” as of the OP). The reply and votes to the “women lie” one means people do in fact notice that an overgeneralization hurts. They just don’t care if it hurts men. Presumably because “men are murderers” and are thus not allowed a voice besides belittling themselves.

It’s just sad.

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- _lunar@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  the difference is your generalization isn’t based in statistical fact. women who lie about false rape accusations (i assume that’s what you’re trying to get at here) are such an unfathomably small minority that no man ever has to live their life considering it. by saying that this is something women in do in equivalence to what women are saying men do, you’re implying otherwise and implying the authenticity of countless women’s experiences with sexual violence at the hands of men is invalid. experiences which are already seldom believed by the people who need to hear it.
  
  on the other hand, a substantial amount of women experience sexual violence from men. it’s statistically common enough that women have to live in fear and that conventional wisdom has long held that women should not go out at night alone, carry mace, etc. etc. etc.
  
  bottom line is, it’s a false equivalency that serves only to invalidate the reality women must face, and what you’re trying to equate it to is that reality. you are harming women by doing this.
  
  it does not harm men to point out what a significant enough amount of them to be dangerous to women at large are doing. you are not personally affected by women saying that men are violent or murderers, but women are personally affected by your exaggerated claims of dishonesty when they speak out against this violence.
  
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  - KomfortablesKissen@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Your assumption is yours to make, I was being deliberately ambiguous. My point was “men like murdering” sounds like a fact, but isn’t. Just as “women lie” sounds like a fact, but isn’t.
    
    the difference is your generalization isn’t based in statistical fact.
    
    The OP isn’t, either. There is no difference. Both are damaging overgeneralizations. Even though more women (because its easier) do lie (again, ambiguous. Can be about how their food tasted) way more often than men do murder, both are damaging overgeneralizations. One more than the other.
    
    Also:
    
    it’s statistically common enough
    
    You are referencing statistics. For the second time. Provide them.
    
    you are harming women by doing this.
    
    No, you just feel like that. Me arguing that I don’t want to be called a murderer because of my penis is not a downplay of rape. You did that part all on your own.
    
    it does not harm men to point out what a significant enough amount of them to be dangerous to women at large are doing.
    
    That’s a lie. Also, how does that fit in with me harming women by pointing something out? We are talking about the sentence “men like murder”, which is rightfully being under fire. You could say this is a shitpost, but your comment is not.
    
    you are not personally affected by women saying that men are violent or murderers
    
    Lie. Here you also try to justify the post as the truth. Just for future reference.
    
    but women are personally affected by your exaggerated claims of dishonesty
    
    How? And how am I not affected by you denying my experience?
    
    violence that they are statistically far more likely to experience.
    
    Are you talking about rape or murder? If you talk about murder, like the OP, that’s again a lie.
    
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    _lunar@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You, in particular, are not being called a murderer, because the OP clearly says “men” and not “all men.” You are however contributing to the problem by being dismissive and making a discussion about women’s safety about you, which is why women should be afraid of you since you are clearly self-serving and have no empathy for and understanding of their plight.
    
    Please explain to me how women talking about violence from men affects you personally. I can tell you how exaggerating your claim is harmful toward women, since because of the disproportionate violence and sexual abuse they face from men, they often find themselves having to speak on their experiences, and often aren’t believed thanks to unfounded biases like yours.
    
    The difference is that your claim is grossly exaggerated to appear equal to the OP’s claim, which actually has statistic validity. The OP’s only mistake is specifying murder, which isn’t the only threat of violence at the hands of men a woman would potentially (and has a good chance of having to) face walking alone at night, but anyone who isn’t 12 should be able to understand the use of hyperbole in a motherfucking shitpost. The intention is clear. it is not safe for women because of violence from men.
    
    Here are the statistics: rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/…/table-42.xls, statista.com/…/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gend…
    
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  - Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    This is sexism. This woman didn’t say “too bad recites national murder statistics exist.” She said men.
    
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    _lunar@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    When you make a sweeping statement about women being dishonest in their accusations, this is unfounded. Men are statistically extremely unlikely to be falsely accused of sexual violence by a woman. A man does not need to consider a woman to be a potential threat.
    
    When you make a sweeping statement about men being violent against women, this is not unfounded. Women are statistically very likely to experience violence from men. That doesn’t mean all or even a majority of men, but enough that women have to consider men to be a potential threat.
    
    By trying to equate the two, you serve only to dismiss the credibility of very often real experiences from women. This harms women very much, especially in a society where they’re already seldom believed by the people who need to hear them, such as the authorities.
    
    It is not sexism toward men to point out that men are the ones committing violence against women specifically, it’s a fact backed up by evidence. She said men because it’s not a woman who is realistically going to be a threat to her. Men ≠ All men.
    
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- Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I made a reply to blind3rdeye where I mirrored some of your sentiments. I have a hard time finding mutual empathy with people. When anyone talks about the unique pain of belonging to certain groups I try my hardest to trust them. I do this because of how much dismissiveness there is of men’s issues.
  
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  - _lunar@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    the thing is, nobody here is being dismissive of men’s issues, because this thread is not a conversation about men’s issues. men are coming in here and dismissing women’s issues.
    
    you guys never seem to talk about this on your own accord, but rather only when it’s to bring down women for talking about the realities they face. it makes it difficult to believe that any of you sincerely care about what you claim to.
    
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    Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You are under a comment about my experience and feelings. I am a man. These are my feelings as a man. People are very publicly dismissing them. You can’t just banish injustices towards people you don’t want to think about away to somewhere else.
    
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  - KomfortablesKissen@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I get that. I found myself on the side of vegans after a post mocked them for being a vegan while the nature they’re protecting is not, and comments then clowning on the vegans that showed up. “How do you know they’re vegan? They’ll tell you.” Kind of stuff. I’m not vegan but I really don’t like this kind of baiting.
    
    My comments were way better received then.
    
    I like what you wrote in the other comment, btw.
    
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blind3rdeye@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’m sorry it bothers you like that.

I personally don’t feel alienated or attacked at all by the kinds of comments you are describing. When I see a comment like “men murder women”, I think of it in the same kind of way comments like “humans are horrible” or “Australians are racist” or “young people have no attention span”… That is to say it describes a trend or someone’s perception of a tendency but does not refer to any specific individual.

People aren’t saying these things to attack you. They are saying them to communicate their own feelings of being unsafe. And to be frank, feeling that you shouldn’t go for a walk at night because it is too dangerous is a pretty serious thing which has obvious negative effects - and the concern is based in reality. It isn’t just a perception problem. So we should take these comments seriously - not just complain about the people saying them.

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- Fleur_@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  How do you feel when someone says women are whores, Germans are Nazis or Africans are slaves? I feel offended and outraged. I don’t care if there are women who work as prostitutes, that most Nazis were Germans and that the trans-atlantic slave trade systematically enslaved a culture group. It’s irrelevant. You’re discriminating and dehumanising these people. But in these times it’s normal to hear men are trash, they’re rapists, they murder. So people are numb to it. They don’t care about it. They will justify it by insisting men are of a position of privilege. That all men intentionally built a patriarchal society to indulge themselves. Most men I know are just people. They want change. They are being alienated and that alienation drives them towards those that actually are the thing people claim men are.
  
  I think you said it well “we should take these comments seriously - not just complain about the people saying them.” I just wish people would say it about men.
  
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