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Comment on The guardian on Joe Rogan's popularity in Aus, and some peoples' reasons for listening.

naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

“middle path of masculinity”, between the “emasculated” and “browbeaten” male of the far left and the Tate-like women haters and “pickup artists” of the far right.

“We want to foster the good side [of masculinity],” he says. “Which is being on the mission, wanting to be strong, being something of a warrior, but also being the good man, the loving husband, the loving partner, the good father”

“There is a vitriol against that idea[…]"

If you ask most people who allegedly want to brow beat men what “good masculinity” is you would probably get stuff like:

strong and helpful
patient
skilled
protects people
Loving and attentive
Takes care of body and mind
Good in a crisis

This guy is claiming men are attacked for wanting to be strong, loving, a good father, and ‘something of a warrior’

Idk what the last means but I basically only see men attacked for

treating women as less then men
using violence to solve problems that could be talked out
using violence on the vulnerable

Which uh, notably aren’t in his list of reason men are attacked. So I want to ask what men’s opinions are.

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galoisghost@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
My opinion is that men who think men are being attacked for their masculinity are misogynists who think that because they speak nicely to their wife/mother/daughter they are nice guys and all the toxic stuff the tolerate and/or do is just boys being boys.

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- NaevaTheRat@vegantheoryclub.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  The impression that I’m getting is that some people are angry at not being praised, having people say mean things sometimes, or at the possibility of being passed over because of what rather than who they are.
  
  Which I get it, that shit sucks. But like women are dealing with that too. Idk if men experience like getting catcalled and being like “shit, am I in danger now?”. Do guys feel like you need another man to walk with you home from a train station at night?
  
  It just seems a bit to me like there’s not much empathy here from the blokes complaining. Yes we should all be kinder to each other, and being looked over is awful. On the latter women are looked over all the time and surely broadly making opportunity 50:50 (realistically because women live slightly longer a true unbiased society would see a very slight majority women in major positions). Like look at Parliament and tell me women aren’t held back from power.
  
  And with mean stuff being said like yes that is rude but again women also deal with that and worse. It doesn’t seem like a reason to hold a grudge, it seems like a reason to band together to equalise everything so the fear and suspicion can stop.
  
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DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I think many are quick to colour all men with the same brush when any man does something bad (murder, domestic violence, etc). This ignores the fact that most men aren’t doing this and are helpless to stop it. It’s not like we’re choosing to let domestic violence to continue. We’re just as powerless as anyone else.

And there’s a real focus on the worst of men’s behaviour, without any appreciation of the good things men do, to balance it out.

All men are flawed, just like all women are flawed (except my Mrs). We’re all a mix of good and bad, trying to do our best.

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- naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  It’s not like we’re choosing to let domestic violence to continue. We’re just as powerless as anyone else.
  
  I think this is really interesting, who do you think can?
  
  It’s also true that male loneliness is pretty significant, and lonely guys are more prone to developing extreme and hateful views but the only people that can do anything about man to man friendships are other men.
  
  There are some fantastic initiatives like lens sheds that are trying to knit a healthy social structure and almost nobody participates in them.
  
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  - DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Men don’t have to have male friends to not be lonely. Any friends will do. I have lots of great female friends.
    
    As far as solving domestic violence, I don’t know how to do that. But I think we can all agree that we want it to end. Probably even the perpetrators of DV want it to end.
    
    Maybe a big part of it is finding those who are most likely to be perpetrators and try to understand them better. And help them better understand themselves.
    
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    naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    I do note an interesting difference in your approach to how to handle DV vs how to handle someone stringing a wire across a bike path. It may be a contradiction you wish to reflect on.
    
    You might want to read this book to get a better idea behind the psychology of DV.
    
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vividspecter@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

"browbeaten” male of the far left

This line really stood out to me. Have they met anyone on the left in their lives?

It’s like they have some imaginary idea of what a left-winger looks and acts like in their minds.

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- naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  The left doesn’t want you to know this but 100% of leftist women are dommes
  
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goodthanks@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
When I see people trying to define positive masculinity, they list traits that are actually good traits I look for in female partners, or male friends. This leads me to believe that the complaints about emasculation are confused ones. I know my mostly absent father complained to my mum about emasculation once. Well, step up and be strong and responsible like most single mothers have to do. Too many guys expect to be respected just for being male. Prove it. Be a good person, male or female.

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Didros@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I think there is also a legitimate response here to the general acceptance of “all men should just die” rhetoric that was popular for a while there (and still is in some circles).

When I was young I told a girlfriend that I wanted to get into politics to help people. She responded, “but you are a white man, you can’t help anyone” or something of the like. Really sticks with you.

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- naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  “but you are a white man, you can’t help anyone” or something of the like. Really sticks with you.
  
  That’s a silly thing to say but it also sounds like it came from the mouth of a teenager? Teenagers say lots of dumb stuff I wouldn’t recommend forming societal views based on them.
  
  Most women have had the experience of being humiliated sexually, and belittled intellectually by young men. Do you feel that women should feel like we’re under attack?
  
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  - Didros@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    I can’t say you should feel anything, simply that I’ve felt as though society doesn’t want my help due to my gender. Therefore, could extrapolate that into a reason other men might feel that way.
    
    I don’t understand people generally, but I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt.
    
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    naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    I’m not trying to have a go, I’m trying to understand. I agree that feeling shut out and having people say awful stuff because of your gender is bad. Surely you see that women deal with this too right though? and extremely extensively.
    
    If you look at the upper echelons of society women are not there, if you look at the trades women aren’t respected, in corporate life women routinely feel like they have to get a man to say their ideas to be taken seriously. When I worked tech support I signed my emails with a man’s name because otherwise customers argued with me (this wasn’t me being ridiculous, my boss asked me to start doing it because he got annoyed reading the tickets going overtime).
    
    So it’s like, surely having experienced some of it you get that all of it is bad right? You wouldn’t arrive at men being under attack, but rather gender equality being important so nobody feels this way.
    
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MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
There’s a ton of casual misandry in American media and some are more sensitive to it than others.

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Eyekaytee@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

I basically only see men attacked for

Hmm maybe this might help (it came out 3 days before the election) www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSw04BwQy4M

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- naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Could you just summarise it because a video is sort of an inaccessible format for public text discussion?
  
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  - Eyekaytee@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    The video discusses the growing political divide, particularly focusing on how men, especially young men, are shifting towards the right politically.
    
    The narrator critiques the Democratic Party’s efforts to appeal to this demographic, highlighting various missteps and tone-deaf attempts at outreach. Here are the key points:
    
    Gender Divide: The video starts by noting the increasing toxicity in gender discourse, with examples of anti-male sentiments from media and social media.
    
    Political Shift: There’s a discussion on how young men are moving towards the Republican Party, while young women are leaning more towards the Democrats. This shift is particularly notable in recent election data.
    
    Democratic Party’s Struggles: The narrator criticizes the Democratic Party’s last-minute efforts to win over young male voters, such as creating spaces for white men and using Tim Walz as a “secret weapon” to appeal to male voters. These efforts are seen as superficial and ineffective.
    
    Social Media Reactions: The video includes reactions from social media, highlighting the divisive and often dismissive attitudes towards men’s concerns. Some tweets suggest that men need to “be better” or are inherently problematic.
    
    Critique of Pandering: The narrator mocks the Democratic Party’s attempts to pander to men, such as ads featuring Tim Walz doing stereotypically masculine activities. These efforts are seen as insincere and condescending.
    
    Bernie Sanders: The video mentions Bernie Sanders as an example of a candidate who successfully spoke to the demographic the Democrats are now struggling to reach. His focus on working-class issues is highlighted as naturally attractive to men.
    
    Call for Change: The narrator expresses frustration with the Democratic Party’s messaging and calls for a more inclusive and effective approach to win back young men. The video ends with a plea for the party to evaluate what they’re doing wrong and make changes for the betterment of society.
    
    Overall, the video is a critique of the Democratic Party’s strategies and a call for more genuine and effective outreach to young male voters.
    
    This is the influence we get from America flooding in
    
    Basically left wing progressives are inherently anti-male and anti-white male and social media helps amplify and push these beliefs far and wide because left wing progressives and women love supplying them with content
    
    Racists Take a DNA Test www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HlGhVgV3Yw
    
    “MEN ARE USELESS!” - After Dark Edit www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI1wptoSLaM
    
    5.5 million views jesus
    
    and I had these videos endlessly appear on my youtube homepage for ages because I watched MMA
    
    Combine that with a lot of guys not doing great in life and then they get to see plenty of women being given a hand (admittedly this was a 30 second search, I don’t even want to imagine how far and wide these programs and monetary advantages are being given to women extend to):
    
    www.vic.gov.au/womens-board-leadership-program
    
    In recent years, Victoria has seen great progress in the representation of women on boards, with women now making up 54% of all public board positions in 2023
    
    So when already make up a majority of board positions and they still get given more advantages regardless:
    
    The Victorian Government is sponsoring 50 women
    
    The 2023 Diploma of Governance scholarship will provide governance training and networking for all women to advance their board careers in the not-for-profit sector.
    
    And yeah, you’re going to breed resentment when men apply and get denied and then look up why
    
    I gotta stop procrastinating on me studies so yeah not gonna engage on this one anymore
    
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    notgold@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Nice one for answering naeva’s question. The part with women’s scholarships is something that does hurt a lot of blokes as they have to work harder for the same opportunity.
    
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    spidervl@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    Basically left wing progressives are inherently anti-male and anti-white male and social media helps amplify and push these beliefs far and wide because left wing progressives and women are supplying them with easy content
    
    You’re describing the liberal wing of the U.S. Democratic Party. A “left-wing progressive” would be someone like Bernie Sanders.
    
    Have a look at this:
    
    Factions in the Democratic Party (United States)
    
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  - Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Without having clicked the link, I assumed the US election last year.
    
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