Comment

Comment on Robot moderation could be coming to your town

<- View Parent

auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

So it would delete people’s posts if they get downvoted a lot

No.

or if the poster tends to upvote heavily downvoted posts?

No.

You’ve automated the suppression of dissenting voices.

Am not.

It’s a perfectly fair concern. I’m trying to be careful to make sure I’m not doing that. There’s quite a lot of explanation in the FAQ, and some conversations you can look back over with people who were concerned, because they’ve had experience with exactly that happening to them.

At one point I tried to illustrate with data just how big a jerk you have to be before it starts banning you. If you’re interested, I can start doing that again. Being a dissenting voice on its own is nowhere near enough to anger the bot. You can look over !pleasantpolitics@slrpnk.net and see quite a few dissenting voices. I’ve also offered to delve, for any user who feels that this has happened to them, into the breakdown of why they’re being ranked down, which almost always is because they’re being a jerk about their “dissenting” opinion, and not the opinion itself.

Also, I think it’s hilarious that someone coming from lemmy.ml is accusing me of trying to suppress dissenting voices. Lemmy.ml has been suppressing dissenting voices since its inception. The degree to which I’m bending over backwards not to suppress dissenting voices is something I think you should absorb and carry over to the lemmy.ml moderators as a good replacement for their current banhammer circus.

source

Sort:hotnew top

hendrik@palaver.p3x.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Hehe, good roast on lemmy.ml

source
- auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The guy set himself up for it for saying a god damn word about “suppression of dissenting voices” while he’s logging into SuppressionOfDissentingVoices.ml every day to access his Lemmy account.
  
  source
  - hendrik@palaver.p3x.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Sure, no need to explain. I think it's been appropriate to point it out.
    
    And wow, quite some comments you got. I'm not sure if I agree with the negative ones. We've been requesting better moderation tools for a long time now. I wouldn't immeadiately do away with your effort. I share some concern about privacy and introducing "algorithms" and bots into the platform instead of making it more human... But ninetheless -we need good moderation. A lot of the issues are just technical in nature and can be solved. And you seem pretty aware of them. And there's always a balance and a potential of abuse that comes with power...
    
    I think we should experiment and try a few things. A bot is a very good idea, since we won't get that into the Lemmy core software. I think mostly due to personal reasons. And that relates to the lemmy.ml situation. I'll have a look at the code. But I'm using PieFed instead of Lemmy. Which already attributes reputation scores to users. So this might be aligned with PieFed's project goals, maybe we can take some inspiration from your ideas.
    
    source
    auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The tool that detects unreasonable people and is effective at combatting them, a whole lot of unreasonable people really don’t like, and they’re being really unreasonable in how they approach the conversation. Go figure.
    
    It wouldn’t be hard to make it work on PieFed. A first step, having it load up the voting flow patterns and make its judgements, would be very easy. It just needs a PieFed version of db.py, it would take 10-20 minutes. Is that something you’re interested in me working up? If I did that, it would be pretty simple for someone to get it working on PieFed, just fill in .env and run the script. Then you’d have to fire up the interpreter, unpickle user_ranks.pkl and start poking around in there, but I could give you some guidance.
    
    That’s where I would start with it. Getting it to speak to the PieFed API to enact its judgements would be a separate thing, but checking it out and seeing what it thinks of your users and how easy it is to work with, as a first step, is very easy.
    
    I had this vague vision of augmenting Lemmy so that it has a user-configurable jerk filter, which can be switched to filter out the avowed jerks from your view of the Lemmyverse regardless of whether the moderators are getting the job done. I think putting the control in the hands of the users instead of the mods and admins would be a nice thing. If you want to talk about that for PieFed, that sounds grand to me.
    
    source
- xploit@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Careful, some might think you’re a jerk 🤣
  
  source
alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

At one point I tried to illustrate with data just how big a jerk you have to be before it starts banning you. If you’re interested, I can start doing that again.

Would you?

My understanding is that downvotes reflect whether or not someone agrees with a post or comment much more than whether the user is making a constructive comment or not so they can only be used to infer how agreeable the comment is.

I’ve also offered to delve, for any user who feels that this has happened to them, into the breakdown of why they’re being ranked down, which almost always is because they’re being a jerk about their “dissenting” opinion, and not the opinion itself.

Use me as an example, I regularly get dozens of downvotes for such hot takes as “supporting genocide is hurts the dems chances of getting elected, we need them to stop that if we want them to win.”.

source
- auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Sure. Here’s you. Red is downvotes, blue is upvotes. The left-right axis is time, with the past on the left.
  
  Image
  
  The bar right below the red/blue bar code is the key to what comments were in what posts.
  
  One thing that jumps out at me is that almost all of your participation is in political threads, and the majority of it is getting downvoted. It would be different if you were just participating in Lemmy, and then also you had some views that were unpopular. That happens to a lot of people, and I’ve bent over backwards trying to preserve their right to do that when I’ve been making and tuning the bot. This isn’t that. This is almost all just you going in and arguing with people.
  
  One thing I say a lot when talking to people about this is, “It’s not your opinion, it’s your delivery.” I’m going to be honest, when I read your first message here, it annoyed me. You’re coming out of the gate hostile. Most people, when they receive that, are going to be hostile back. It’s just how people work. You’re not going to convince them of your point of view, you’re not going to be able to fine-tune your own point of view to let them poke holes in any mistakes in it. You’re just going to irritate everyone. That’s a choice you’re making in how you approach things, and I think it’s completely fair for people to react to that choice by closing the door on you.
  
  It’s the difference between going to a party when you’re in a fringe political party, and having conversations about it, versus showing up to the party with a bunch of flyers and handing one to every person and making almost every conversation over the course of the night revolve around your chosen fringe political party. The first one is fine, or should be, at a decent party. The second one, people are going to remove you from the party for. I think if you want to make an impact on people’s thinking, you’re going to need to recognize and respect that reality of human nature.
  
  Having an unpopular political opinion is fine. Being a little bit combative with people is fine. Doing both at once is going to collect a tidal wave of downvotes, and also I think is going to make it harder for you to make any progress convincing anyone of anything.
  
  I regularly get dozens of downvotes for such hot takes as “facilitating genocide hurts the dems chances of getting elected, we need them to stop that if we want them to win.”.
  
  I’m going to stop you right there.
  
  You’re playing a little game where you claim you said one thing and got downvoted for it, when I can guarantee you actually said something different. You probably said that we need to not vote for the Democrats, because they’re facilitating genocide. That’s different. You can say that, sure. Someone might say back to you that not voting for the Democrats is going to make the genocide 20 times worse, and that’s why they’re voting for the Democrats. They can say that, too. That’s progress, that’s people talking to each other. Maybe one or the other of you will learn something from the exchange.
  
  Where it gets difficult is where you go off into this alternate reality where they said, “I love genocide, and I love the Democrats, I’m going to give you downvotes because you don’t support genocide which I love,” and then you start arguing against that thing that they didn’t say. That’s not progress. That’s just people shouting and trying to twist the conversation around so that they can “win.” It only takes a little bit of that before people are going to stop talking to you.
  
  I know you do that, because you did it to me in your first message in this conversation.
  
  I looked over some of your posting history, and I think you’ve got some valuable things to say. I learned some things about how bad Liz Cheney was before she for some reason found her principles and broke with the Republican party over Trump. I saw some debates people were having with you about Russian and Chinese history, where I don’t think you’re right, but it didn’t seem like any kind of badly intentioned thing.
  
  I think if you built up the habit of always responding honestly to what people said, and telling the truth about your own views and the world outside the best way you can, the bot wouldn’t treat you harshly, and you’d also make more progress in convincing people of what you’re trying to say.
  
  Try again: What’s the last thing you said that got dozens of downvotes, and what did you actually say that got dozens of downvotes? What was the opposing side’s core argument, honestly summarized?
  
  source
  - BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Two things:
    
    You’ve accused them of being hostile here, and of arguing elsewhere.
    
    This very post by you comes across as hostile to me.
    
    Paradigm is everything, and here you are attempting to be the arbiter if what’s acceptable.
    
    source
    Ashtear@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    All I can think about is how this bot is immediately a non-starter because this is the kind of attitude I can expect from the author when asking for support or collaboration. It’s not just in this post, either.
    
    Even if the parent comment here was hostile–it’s borderline, at worst–I can’t possibly understand the mentality of being argumentative in a post trying to encourage the use of a service.
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
    catloaf@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I had the same reaction. I’d like to see this graph for OP. (And also a sentiment analysis of their comments.)
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
- auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  My understanding is that downvotes reflect whether or not someone agrees with a post or comment much more than whether the user is making a constructive comment or not so they can only be used to infer how agreeable the comment is.
  
  I never responded to this part, and I should have. Yes, people definitely vote in exactly that fashion. They do, however, upvote about 10 times more than they downvote. And, the bot takes into account everything you say. It’s not just those controversial topics. You have to be talking about only, or majority, things that people don’t want to hear in order to trigger it. And, Lemmy is all those minority political takes on things. There are a lot of communities where you’ll get straight-up banned for saying things that are mainstream American points of view. The people who tend to be argumentative like to maintain a fiction that people on Lemmy just can’t handle someone who’s anti-genocide, or something like that, when they’re showing up right next to a “fuck Israel” meme or a “fuck Biden for arming Israel” meme that has 1,500 upvotes.
  
  It’s hard for me to make a convincing argument that it’s tolerant of dissenting voices who aren’t jerks about it without listing off accounts. I can do some version, though, if you’re interested, listing examples of banned and not-banned accounts to illustrate where the boundary line is.
  
  source
  - alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    Lemmy just can’t handle someone who’s anti-genocide
    
    They can’t when that stance conflicts with their party. Hence why “The dems need to stop the genocide, people are not going to vote for genocide” gets you downvoted.
    
    “fuck Biden for arming Israel” meme that has 1,500 upvotes
    
    Those exist on .world? I see a lot more “You have to vote for genocide because trump would do genocide and also other bad things”.
    
    source
    auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t know how much I want to go around this merry-go-round. I’m losing some of my good humor about it. I’ll try though.
    
    If you need evidence, here it is:
    
    lemmy.world/search?q=fuck biden&type=All&listingT…
    
    Let’s look at the first page:
    
    Fuck Biden and fuck Putin.
    
    (Even though I did vote for Biden in 2020 and plan to again in 2024 if he’s the Democratic nominee.)
    
    118 upvotes (inb4 you pretend that the other three also included that little disclaimer, even though they didn’t)
    
    Also genocide. Never forget that Biden is aiding and abetting a genocide. Don’t fucking look away because he’s your guy, motherfuckers
    
    81 upvotes
    
    Obligatory: Fuck Biden, Fuck Putin, Fuck Netanyahu/IDF and anybody else complicit in killing innocent people and/or oppressing people.
    
    51 upvotes
    
    Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
    
    49 upvotes
    
    Expressing the viewpoint that you are claiming is banned, is incredibly popular.
    
    You said, “They can’t when that stance conflicts with their party.” That’s backwards. I can’t speak for everybody, but for me, it’s exactly the other way around. Because I dislike genocide, and because Trump getting elected will accelerate the genocide tenfold, I support Harris. I’m not clinging to the Democrats even though they’re enabling genocide. I’m voting Democratic in this election because the alternative is more genocide. Much, much more.
    
    You can understand and deal with that viewpoint head-on without caricaturing it into something else. You could say it doesn’t make sense, you could criticize the logic, you could try to argue some other strategy that is no genocide, instead of Harris or Trump. All fine. Instead you’re doing a little dodge where you pretend that the only reason someone might say that, is that they love Democrats and are okay with genocide. For as long as that’s your debate style, you are not welcome, as far as I’m concerned. Learn to respect the point of view of people you disagree with, if you like. I think it’ll help you. Or don’t, and get used to being not listened to in some forums, and banned from some others.
    
    You can take that or leave it. I’m not trying to debate you. But I’m now pointing out for the second time that, rather than the issue being your viewpoint, which is popular on Lemmy, the issue is that you are caricaturing your opponent’s also-popular viewpoint on Lemmy into something nutty, so that you can send messages which have no possible possibility of any productive impact. That’s disrespectful and inflammatory. That’s why you are banned. Not because of your viewpoint, which is very popular on Lemmy.
    
    source
- Kaboom@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Hell. I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum. I bet I get banned for hot takes like “I should be able to defend myself legally” and “Illegal immigrants should be deported”
  
  source
  - auk@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You got banned for hot takes like, “A lot more pedophiles endorsing Harris though. It would cancel out if they were about the same, but they aren’t.”
    
    I’m curious to know what you said under the posts about the Harris campaign HQ getting shot with bullets, or the disinformation project which produced the video of illegal immigrants saying they’re registered to vote, but not curious enough to look into it any further.
    
    Sounds like the bot knows its job. The paradox of tolerance is tempting, but it’s resisting.
    
    source
    Kaboom@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    When was Harris shot at? Was that after Trump was shot at? Was it a copycat?
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
  - alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Maybe, but conservatism is considered much more acceptable among Americans than anything left of liberalism. Particularly now when the dems are trying to reach out to conservatives. You can check by whether you’ve been banned from PleasentPolitics
    
    legally” and “Illegal
    
    Adding “this should be done according to the law” doesn’t divorce an action from its morality.
    
    Rounding up millions of immigrants, some whom have been here for decades, and nearly all of whom are here because they’re fleeing the effects of the US constantly couping their governments and training/funding terrorists is an immoral action, whether they’re legal or illegal.
    
    source