Thank you for the detailed explanation!
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
Long winded, nuanced answer, ready your eyeballs:
It's a bit complicated, but since we're on Fediverse and at least somewhat familiar with how things work here, I'll try to explain with that comparison in mind.
On Fediverse, instances are in control of the user data directly. To "migrate" your account, you'd be switching instances and admins entirely.
BlueSky splits things up quite a bit more.
There, you can host your own "PDS" or Personal Data Server. That hosts your account and post info only.
Then, there's the "AppView". In comparison to Fediverse, these are like Lemmy, Mastodon, Mbin, etc. Right now, there's VERY few Appviews to choose from.
Then, there's the "relay". Which to Fediverse, the only thing similar is also relays, but they work differently. On BlueSky, they relay every post and interactions of all the PDS data that connect to AppViews. I do not think there's a choice on *what* is relayed, just a huge firehose. That being said, they're not optional like Fediverse. To complete the network, relays are required on ATProto and apparently could be expensive to host, so right now, it appears the only relay is hosted by BlueSky the company. Which makes things slightly centralized.
Now, that we have those definitions out of the way, this is where things get a bit muddy and a bit of purposeful corporate created confusion for purpose of selfishness is quite apparent.
Right now, there's very few AppViews. The ones I'm aware of are, BlueSky itself, Whitewind, and Frontpage.xyz.
The confusion happens because BlueSky, the company, doesn't separate the fact that accounts hosted on self-hosted PDS, aren't technically Bluesky accounts, they're ATproto accounts. Everywhere you look to login, it says "login using your BlueSky account". I can only assume they're doing this on purpose so that anyone who tries to make an Appview, host a PDS, AND a relay, can't have their own "identity" like different instances and platforms have here on Fedi.
That will confuse people and make them think *everything* is just hosted by BlueSky the company. However, as we've now established, there's definitely a separation of "Bluesky" the company, "BlueSky" the AppView that you can login to using your "BlueSky" account, which doesnt technically have to be hosted by anything related to BlueSky.
I hope this all makes sense and you can tell that *technically* things are decentralized for the most part. It's just that BlueSky is purposefully muddying their own definitions of things so that anyone that tries to build on ATproto, has a hard time making themselves known as *not* bluesky due to the way they conflate all these definitions.
Sorry for the huge post and hope it makes sense in some way.
Thanks for reading.😁👍
Blaze@feddit.org 2 months ago
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@Blaze no problem, friend.
I always worry if my long winded answers make sense to neurotypical people as I'm ADHD and slightly autistic.😅
So I hope it does make sense, at least even partially.
Overall, they're mostly centralized because there's *very* few relays and they're required infrastructure, but decentralized in other ways, which may or may not matter in the bigger picture because of this previous information.
Drunemeton@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Your answer was concise and succinct, for such a complicated topic. Thank you!
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@Drunemeton you're welcome, and thank you for the reassurance, friend.🫡
blue_berry@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Thanks for the explanation. Didn’t realize Bluesky/AT is more like a fedi-washed version of ActivityPub rather than a real alternative …
I’m not sure; on the one hand, I think the fact that federation has become a unique selling point in micro-blogging is indicating a positive trend; so even if people join fedi-washed Bluesky its good for the Fediverse. On the other hand, if federated just becomes another buzz word that means nothing at all, while places where the real innovation is happening are drowned out, the window of opportunity could just close.
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@blue_berry TBH I think our biggest strength here is decentralization, but every day we're inching closer and closer to centralization here in many ways and most don't care.
Mastodon controls how 73% of users interact with Fediverse. Threads, if it fully federates will completely take that over, but then we have 2 corporate entities in charge here and there's nothing any of us are doing about it.
They will be able to enact change in AP that most other softwares can't and effectively completely change Fedi as we know it.
tengkuizdihar@programming.dev 2 months ago
So its activitypub, but worse because its designed from the ground up to be difficult to federate? Bro just use twitter at this point.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
That’s a wild interpretation of what they said.
Dude described a branding problem, not a technical problem.
JoMiran@lemmy.ml 2 months ago
Bro just use twitter at this point.
That’s like choosing gangrene on your foot because you can’t decide which shoe to wear and tying the laces seems like a pain in the ass.
tengkuizdihar@programming.dev 2 months ago
Man this is a Bruh moment comment from me, My bad guys
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@tengkuizdihar well, it's not difficult to federate, it's difficult to seperate your identity from BlueSky itself, if you're trying to create something on ATproto.
I doubt you'll see big news about a service using ATproto, the way Fedi platforms do, besides BlueSky because they really don't want you to differentiate that way.🤦♂️
xnx@slrpnk.net 2 months ago
Or maybe they do it because it would be very confusing for 99% of users to read “sign in with your atproto account” when no one knows what that is. Its a good thing theyre keeping things simple for now instead of getting the mastodon “its too complicated” issue and having non tech users not use it.
Mastodon and the activitypub culture is very much either “its too complicated” or “how do you not understand its so simple maybe you’re just dumb and shouldnt be here” energy and its why 99% of topics here are just tech and politics. Almost no artists use it and the few that use it are on mastodon.art which defederates from so many instances.
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@xnx well, it doesn't really matter their reasoning when the end result is the same.
It won't become truly decentralized with these things in the way.
timconspicuous@lemmy.ml 2 months ago
To complete the network, relays are required on ATProto and apparently could be expensive to host, so right now, it appears the only relay is hosted by BlueSky the company. Which makes things slightly centralized.
A number I’ve seen quoted multiple times now is ~$150 per month to host a relay (Source). Which explains why Whitewind, Smokesignal and Frontpage don’t host one, they are mostly still small projects by individual talented devs, but imo if that number is true, it really doesn’t seem too outlandish that someone might go for it.
Blaze@feddit.org 2 months ago
Wow, that’s very high, thanks!
poVoq@slrpnk.net 2 months ago
Lemmy.world used to cost that much, but I think they downscaled a bit recently, or are at least planning to as the current growth of the userbase has slowed down.
I was actually surprised by that 150 figure when I first read it, as it is much cheaper than what the BlueSky documentation makes it sound.
It is certainly possible to collect that much in monthly donations, but then again… how do you build a loyal base of supporters for running a mostly hidden piece of infrastructure? People always complain about the instance focussed nature of the fediverse, but the ability to build communities around them and get people actually emotionally invested in their home instance is IMHO rather a strength of it. That is also why I am slightly sceptic of easy account migration tools, as it devalues the instance as yourhome base to a certain extend.
Blaze@feddit.org 2 months ago
Yeah, the instance-focus aspect of the Fediverse is a good thing. You are a good example with slrpnk.net, but dbzer0, all the language/country-based instances (feddit.org, jlai.lu, aussie.zone, lemmy.ca, feddit.uk) also have their own culture and feeling. That’s cool to see.
as it devalues the instance as yourhome base to a certain extend.
That’s definitely a thing for generalist instances. I don’t really think there is much of a lemm.ee culture for instance. Which is also okay, some people just want access to Lemmy without a strong instance identity.
xnx@slrpnk.net 2 months ago
Frontpage.xyz doesnt seem to exist do you know the correct domain?
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
mark@programming.dev 2 months ago
Damn. This needs to be a blog article and saved somewhere! No need to apologize. You’ve done a great job explaining a very technical topic in a simple and relatable way.
BeAware@social.beaware.live 2 months ago
@mark thank you for the compliment and assurance friend.
I am always self conscious about my long winded replies because sometimes even I wouldn't wanna read a post that long.
Though, with topics like this that I'm very passionate about, I feel it's very important to lay out all the information and knowledge I have so that others can make informed decisions themselves based on the most important details.
I discuss Fediverse and networks like it, literally constantly and there's LOTS of nuances with these systems that need lots of explanations.
Emperor@feddit.uk 2 months ago
No need to be self-conscious - that’s a concise account of a complicated issue, which is going to go long. Long posts become an issue when they are rambling and unfocused.