slickgoat

I actually deeply admire your post, which is nuanced in the extreme. There is not much I can disagree in a general sense. My knowledge about Marxism comes primarily through the study of European revolutions at University level and it annoys me to see stupid memes simplify complex historical factors based upon immature current day biases.

I would beg to differ on Stalin’s attitude towards Trotsky that it was not focused upon his political ideology so much as Trotsky’s initial popularity and his potential as a rival. Trotsky was just as powerful an intellectual figure after exile as he was in Moscow. The threat need be eliminated.

The last point I might make is that we are both talking nonsense to a large extent. What historical figures choose to borrow or steal from others in order to realise some political goal is anybody’s guess. They can dip in and out of political theory at will. In this way both God and the Devil are able to quote scripture because the text contains all the justification that suits each according to their political needs.

He mentioned state control as a criticism of the capitalist system, not advocating for a communist replacement like-for-like. He well understood the lessons of 1789 and the failings of replacing the crown with a new kind of exploitation.

Much of the concepts you list are the academic explanations for Marxism, but a lot of that have been thrust upon his theories and not what he actually wrote about. You can argue that many of them, including state control, are natural extensions of his writing, but nothing Marx wrote about, or very little, describes what happened in either China, the USSR or satellite regimes. In that sense, there is no such thing Marxism.

Absolutely agree.

You have to compare what went before it as well. China is a success compared to the utter slavery and poverty of the common folk before the communist revolution. It’s not freedom exactly, but even the US isn’t free either by many measures. China has guaranteed vacation days, at least. It has near universal health insurance, and while not free, is heavily subsidized by the government.

I’d say that a perfect form of government doesn’t exist, but communism isn’t necessarily the worst. At least in every regard.

Gotcha

Once again, Marx did not describe Marxism. Other people did for their own ends.

All Marx did was examine capitalism and compare it to pre-capatalist societies. For instance, a shoemaker could once feed his family for a five day week on making two sets of boots. A factory owner sets up and employs him and he now makes parts of 22 pairs of boots - working 6 days a week for the same money. That is and observation and a critique. He said that all this did was exploit his labour and transfered his monetary value to the factory owner. Furthermore, this situation was unnecessary and society would EVOLVE away from capital-based labour to a social-based way of living. I’m not saying that he was right or wrong. Inherent in all this was seizing the means of production, but not necessary by or for state control.

Marx also got a lot wrong by his own admission. He never understood why England didn’t fall to revolution in 1848 (for instance) because he thought that the time was ideal.

All I’m really saying is that throwing around these terms may not reflect the reality and that time must be spent coming to grips with them. It can be really rewarding, but that might be just me?

Except Marx laid out specific conditions for communism and none have been met by regimes who claim the title.

No person should use the name communism as a slur, and no person should claim to be a communist until they have at least read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto.

Both sides might just leave it alone.

Marx said that communism would evolve naturally with neighbour working with neighbour and community working with community. It also involved democracy by electing officials where necessary. He didn’t mention state control, so no, we have not remotely experienced communism.

You might argue, even correctly, that communism is unworkable, but you can’t argue that humans have tried it in modern history and it failed.