luciferofastora
@luciferofastora@lemmy.zip
- Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta 2 weeks ago:
because you don’t like a word
I have no issue with the word, but with the spiteful mentality of “the more people suggest I change it, the less I want to”.
- Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta 2 weeks ago:
Yeah, and if you click enough links on Wikipedia you always wind up at logic, math, or philosophy. At some point, you are going to have to read new words to learn new things. And it will get increasingly technical as you go deeper.
Provided you’re willing to dig deep, yes, but Wikipedia usually offers a summary of the term at the top. In the event, I found Wikipedia’s explanation of cloud native much more useful than the link to the ublue page about it, or the CNCF’s definition.
Scaring folks away to seek out another distro where they will almost certainly have to learn more to get started is hurting your stated cause.
I don’t have an accurate sense of how much you’d have to learn about bazzite, so I’ll have trust you on this when it comes to the usage. I personally didn’t have difficulties with other distros, but I’m also not entirely new to the OS world, so my experience may be skewed.
My proximate issue is the pitch, the entry point, the first impression. Evidently, there are people who come across that term and worry that it may mean what “cloud” in many other contexts means: “Your data is somewhere else you have no control over.” And how would they know they’re wrong? If they click on the link, they’re faced with a stack of technical terms they might not understand. Even if they concluded that nothing explicitly says their system will be running in the cloud, how could they trust that conclusion built on unknowns?That insecurity creates an entry barrier for those looking at the website, the impact of which we can’t measure, but that doesn’t have to mean it’s negligible.
The underlying issue, however, is the philosophy behind doubling down on that. If you’re faced with evidence of misunderstandings, people pointing out that barrier, and make a point of not just ignoring it but explicitly saying “Now I want to keep that barrier even more”, that speaks to a mindset that I personally am strongly opposed to. Handing people guides and saying “here, climb over that barrier on your own” doesn’t fully mitigate that.
Hence, in absence of personal experience on the usage, I’ll argue from a position of principle. It’s not a mindset I want to endorse, and so I attempt to steer people away from what I perceived as a higher barrier of entry.
The Bazzite homepage also makes numerous references to it being “installable on all your favorite devices” so it becomes quickly apparent to most folks that it isn’t hosted “in the cloud”.
Thin clients connected to some cloud-hosted VM are also installable on many devices. Microsoft 365 is available as apps, but still runs in the cloud (but it doesn’t even pitch that, it just says “all in one place” - the mention of cloud is further down the page, after some other feature pitches). How would I know “native” doesn’t mean “lives in the cloud”? It wouldn’t be the first time marketing fudges terms.
And again, I advise against making assumptions about what becomes apparent to most folks. Most folks aren’t confident in their technical understanding and may err on the side of caution. I’ve tried guiding people through the simplest things, and if there was one detail they weren’t sure they understood, the immediate response was to abort the process for fear of breaking something. A message box pops up and they panic “Aaah what’s happening, what does that mean” because they don’t trust their understanding. I’ve watched people click on some explanation, get confused at some term and resort to fleeing the page back to things they know better…
I get that you don’t like the term cloud native image
I have no issue with the term. Technical terms are useful in their respective technical contexts, where people know what they’re a shorthand for. If I talk to a data analyst, I’ll use the term DFM. If I talk to a database engineer, I might use the term denormalisation. But if I talk to a sales manager and use either of those, they’ll stare at me blankly. And that’s what I dislike: Using the term in a context where I feel it’s out of place and is known to cause confusion.
really a very small piece of a very user friendly pie
…but may well be the first piece they taste.
But like I said, my issue isn’t with the piece of pie, but the baking practice: “The more people tell me they don’t like raisins, the more I want to add raisins to spite them.” Their pie may otherwise be delicious, but I still wouldn’t recommend that baker.
To put a line under all this, I might give Bazzite a try myself, see how I get along with it, but that won’t change the fact that I find such a spiteful mentality unfit for recommendation.
I believe in the value of user-friendly presentation, not just systems, because the presentation matters to many users. I also believe that the Linux community at large should present itself more helpful and user-friendly, and comments like the one that sparked the thread don’t help that image.
I want to see the Linux ecosystem grow, and I believe that requires a willingness to cater to the least technical users as well. Yes, some amount of learning will be inevitable, but the first contact at least should welcome users as simply and comfortably as possible.
And as a side effect, being more willing to explain and help each other will also help the rest of us. Spite and elitism don’t help anyone.
- Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta 2 weeks ago:
You mean the link that aays
Universal Blue rests on the idea of bringing cloud native patterns to the operating system. We leverage standard cloud tools like the OCI standard images, Docker/Podman, and GitHub to build our images.
and assumes those terms already mean something to you? Oh wait, cloud native is a link again let’s see…
CNCF is the open source, vendor-neutral hub of cloud native computing, hosting projects like Kubernetes and Prometheus to make cloud native universal and sustainable.
Great! Two more technical terms! Oh, there’s another text further down the page.
As part of the Linux Foundation, we provide support, oversight and direction for fast-growing, cloud native projects, including Kubernetes, Envoy, and Prometheus.
Nope, still no explanation, but we’ve got another link, this time to an actual definition:
Cloud native practices empower organizations to develop, build, and deploy workloads in computing environments (public, private, hybrid cloud) to meet their organizational needs at scale in a programmatic and repeatable manner. It is characterized by loosely coupled systems that interoperate in a manner that is secure, resilient, manageable, sustainable, and observable.
Cloud native technologies and architectures typically consist of some combination of containers, service meshes, multi-tenancy, microservices, immutable infrastructure, serverless, and declarative APIs — this list is non-exhaustive.
Aaaand it’s another wall of technical terms.
What is “easy to understand” about this, unless you’re already familiar enough with that specific technical field that it really isn’t an issue in the first place? A definition directed at experts is no explanation, and hitting a reader with a wall of terms they don’t even know how to classify, let alone understand, isn’t very accessible.
And on that note, you said you couldn’t find a definition of Atomic on Fedora’s site… So I clicked just one link from your posted link there and found this.
Sorry, I didn’t think I’d have to “Get started” on a particular distro to find a note on what the whole “atomic” thing they advertise is about. Wouldn’t have killed them to put that paragraph on the previous page already, just a small note at the top, to explain the selling point they’re using.
Linux is going to have a LOT of terms a new user will have to learn. The idea of a cloud native image may cause a misconception, but no more so than any of the other myriad terms a new user will have to learn.
That’s an issue I’ve complained about before: The entry barrier is too high still. People shouldn’t have to learn a lot of new terms, if at all possible. In that vein, it’s better to start out with distros that require less learning, and if the interest grips you, start learning and exploring from there.
But if you have to learn terms, it should be ordered from most fundamental and universal to most specific, and I’d put “cloud native” in the back half of that spectrum. You’ll need to know what a file system is, for instance, may need to learn the term distro / distribution and many more, but for the immediate operation of a system, you don’t need to know what OCI, Docker, Podman, Kubernetes, Prometheus, deploying, workloads or “loosely coupled systems that interoperate in a manner that is secure, resilient, manageable, sustainable, and observable” mean.
So I genuinely do recommend starting out with something less laden with technical terms, and working your way up from there. I started out with Ubuntu, now I’m using Nobara and plan to use my old spare drive to try some other flavours like Silverblue. It’s not that I don’t think the learning isn’t worth it, it’s just that it shouldn’t be frontloaded.
I read your posted argument from earlier, and I want to believe you when you argue your goal is to push for Linux to be more accessible. But the reality of your arguments seem to tell a different story. You seem more interested in dying on a pointless hills while dissuading interested converts from trying what is one of the most stable and user friendly distros I’ve ever tried.
My gripe with Bazzite isn’t whether it’s user friendly, but whether its maintainers are. The founder made a point of telling people “the more I see this whining the more I want to keep it on the website”, because it’s an accurate definition, no matter how useless. I like reasonable discussion, I can accept personal disagreement, but what I’m seeing here is a user providing a prime example of the confusion the word causes and the founder replying to the effect of “now I want to use it even more”.
That’s the exact opposite of accessibility. That’s someone saying “By the way, this is a barrier” and getting the reply “Yes, and people complaining about it makes me want to keep it.” It’s not even “Sorry, this can’t be helped” so much as “I want this barrier to be there” for no good reason.
So that is a hill I will fight on, not because of the specific term but because of the culture behind it that plagues the tech sphere at large. We’re building walls of technical understanding requirements instead of bridges of explanations. Some walls are reasonable, some necessary, some harmless. Some gaps are too wide for a single bridge to cross, so you’ll need to take a detour over other concepts. But building walls out of spite, along with (not represented here, but also common) scoffing at those looking to build bridges or telling people looking for entry “just scale the wall”, are communication culture issues that serve to isolate rather than integrate.
- Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta 2 weeks ago:
Cloud native is the end product too.
What bearing does it have on use of the end product? If I am a German Native, but move to France, and someone asks me where I live, what difference does it make whether I’m German Native?
Bazzite isn’t cloud based in the sense of “runs in the cloud”. If you install it on your computer, it runs on your computer. It’s not a cloud resident, in the sense of that analogy, no matter whether it was born there.
Unless it does, in which case it would seem that the term isn’t quite so clear as you think.
I don’t care about your issue with the definition of an already defined word.
My issue isn’t with the definition, but with the implicit assumption that it’s well known or easy to understand, as well as the way it is used. We had that discussion over in the other thread already, but the gist of your replies has always been “I don’t care if the term is useless or can be misunderstood. It’s correct, so it stays.” That stance is my issue.
- Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta 2 weeks ago:
I advise against using Bazzite as a Windows convert, unless you’re happy to do a lot of reading to understand what you’re actually signing up for. The founder doesn’t really care about Windows Gamers (or anyone outside of the professional linux world), according to a comment they made earlier today in response to criticism of the description “cloud native”.
To save you a click, the conversation was about the description of Bazzite as “cloud native” on the bazzite homepage* can be confusing or even misleading for people who assume it means “will run in the cloud”. The founder explicitly commented they’ll keep doubling down on the term until people no longer complain about it.
Their argument was that there is an entire foundation for Cloud Native Computing and that the concept is “an incredibly common thing in any professional paid Linux job.” They understand that Windows Gamers in particular might have the aforementioned misconception, but they don’t care if you get it.
That doesn’t necessarily make Bazzite a bad distro, but I’d be wary about the level of assistance you can expect from people who think that a technical word soup featuring terms like “build our images” and “deploying Linux environments to users” is enough to explain that “cloud native” actually just means the development process and the end product has nothing to do with the cloud.
*Specifically, the homepage’s text opens with:
“Bazzite is a cloud native image built upon Fedora Atomic Desktops that brings the best of Linux gaming to all of your devices - including your favorite handheld.”
I don’t know why they’d lead with the development method, rather than describing what the OS actually does, but apparently that’s what they care most about.As an aside, I don’t see any obvious description what “atomic” means on the Fedora Atomic site either.
- Comment on Go into debt if you have to 3 weeks ago:
And then draw the rest of the fucking owl
- Comment on Doom on a CAPTCHA is the most frustrating though admittedly raddest way to prove your humanity to an algorithm 3 weeks ago:
Actually, can we do that IRL?
- Comment on Do you want the murderer of the UnitHealthcare CEO prosecuted? 1 month ago:
Hear me out before you rage:
In theory? I believe that killings warrant investigation, prosecution and trial, no matter their intention, though the intention should factor into the result of the process. I want him to be prosecuted with the same intensity as any other killing would be, and if found, given a fair trial, convicted for whatever charge applies, as would be proper for a functioning judicial system. But then I’d want to see him pardoned as political expression of his popular support (and the fact that his victim was part of a deeply inhuman complex of exploitation).
In practice? I hope they never find him. Appropriate intensity of investigation? Orderly arrest? Fair treatment as prisoner? Fair trial? Fair charges? Fair conviction? Fat chance. Pardoned? Not even a chance.
I want him to go without punishment more than I want to hope for a fair process, and I couldn’t believe in the latter in any case.
- Comment on Elon Musk says too many game studios are owned by giant corporations so his giant corporation is going to start a studio to 'make games great again' 2 months ago:
I hope he loses everything he holds dear: Public respect, wealth, his entourage of yes-men, powerful allies…
Not because I’d wish suffering on anyone, but because all these things enable him to keep doing damage and I want that to stop.
- Comment on Dragon Age: The Veilguard's impressive tresses feature '50,000 individual strands per character for over 100 hairstyles' 2 months ago:
Hey, don’t apologise or defend yourself for loving something! I’m pretty sure you’ll find plenty of people sharing your enthusiasm, if not about this game then about others. Loving something is wonderful and I hope you have tons more fun with it 😊
- Comment on Dragon Age: The Veilguard's impressive tresses feature '50,000 individual strands per character for over 100 hairstyles' 2 months ago:
So ~80 hours for a completionist run? That’s decent
- Comment on But I wanna 2 months ago:
An introduction to which topic?
- Comment on 'It even breaks my heart a bit': Denuvo pushes back on its haters, says Steam forums are a 'very toxic, very hostile environment' 2 months ago:
The willingness to be responsible for consequences does factor in. If you round the corner and crash into someone, you probably didn’t intend to, but whether you’ll be an ass about it and yell at the other person or whether you’ll apologise and check they’re alright makes a difference.
In a perfect-information-setting, intent equals result: If I know what my actions will cause and continue to carry them out, the difference between “primary objective” and “accepted side-effect” becomes academic. But in most cases, we don’t have perfect information.
I feel like the intent-approach better accounts for the blind spots and unknowns. I’ll try to construct two examples to illustrate my reeasoning. Consider them moral dilemmas, as in: arguing around them “out of the box” misses the point.
Ex. 1:
A person is trying to dislodge a stone from their shoe, and in doing so leans on a transformator box to shake it out. You see them leaning on a trafo and shaking and suspect that they might be under electric shock, so you try to save them by grabbing a nearby piece of wood and knocking them away from the box. They lose balance, fall over and get a concussion.
Are you to blame for their concussion, because you knocked them over without need, despite your (misplaced) intention to save them?Ex. 2:
You try to kill someone by shooting them with a handgun. The bullet misses all critical organs, they’re rushed to a hospital and in the process of scanning for bullet fragments to remove, a cancer in the earliest stages is discovered and subsequently removed. The rest of the treatment goes without complications and they make a speedy and full recovery.
Does that make you their saviour, despite your intent to kill them?In both cases, missing information and unpredictable variables are at play. In the first, you didn’t know they weren’t actually in danger and couldn’t predict they’d get hurt so badly. In the second, you probably didn’t know about the tumor and couldn’t predict that your shot would fail to kill them. In both cases, I’d argue that it’s your intent that matters for moral judgement, while the outcome is due to (bad) “luck” in the sense of “circumstances beyond human control coinciding”. You aren’t responsible for the concussion, nor are you to credit with saving that life.
- Comment on 'It even breaks my heart a bit': Denuvo pushes back on its haters, says Steam forums are a 'very toxic, very hostile environment' 2 months ago:
I was responding to the “Look, they’re all nice people” defense you quoted, not contradicting you. I agree with you in principle.
I don’t consider “misguided” a valid defence.
My view of morality is largely centered on intent, so “I thought it would be a good thing” is a valid defence (though there is also a degree of responsibility to check assumptions; if you never made any effort to check if it actually is a good thing, that’s negligence)
So it’s hard to be good when your salary depends on you being bad.
…and by extension, when your livelihood depends on you being bad, yes. Not everyone’s livelihood depends on their salary, but for many people it does. If it’s hard to find a job that can pay the bills, I don’t fault people for the human reflex of justifying bad things to yourself in the name of survival.
(But if they do have a choice and choose to enrich themselves at the expense of others, they’re obviously pricks - just saying this might not apply to all the devs involved here).
- Comment on 'It even breaks my heart a bit': Denuvo pushes back on its haters, says Steam forums are a 'very toxic, very hostile environment' 2 months ago:
You can be a great person and still write garbage software. Whether you’re just doing it because you need money or whether you’re misguided and think it’s actually good, that doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person (and remember: It’s hard to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on not understanding it).
Doesn’t make the software less garbage.
- Comment on Trump cosplaying 3 months ago:
…
wat
I understand that you’re quoting. This is no criticism of your comment. I consider myself fairly adept at imitating the mental gymnastics. But here, I’m at a loss.
- Comment on Trump cosplaying 3 months ago:
I’m only a chapter in, but found the section on conventionalism curious. It may explain why they take such issue with being called “weird”: If they value their perception of being “normal”, “weird” isn’t just an insult used against people you don’t like, it’s an attack on a principal personality trait.
- Comment on Trump cosplaying 3 months ago:
wat
why
How would you even frame that as a favour?
- Comment on Players are now less "accepting" that games will be fixed, say Paradox, after "underestimating" the reaction to Cities: Skylines 2's performance woes 3 months ago:
I mean, your counterexample is already the epitome of exploitation, so I’m not sure citing it would exonerate Paradox here :D
- Comment on Players are now less "accepting" that games will be fixed, say Paradox, after "underestimating" the reaction to Cities: Skylines 2's performance woes 3 months ago:
I mean, your counterexample is already the epitome of exploitation, so I’m not sure citing it would exonerate Paradox here :D
- Comment on No further questions your honour 3 months ago:
Halsin noises in the distance
- Comment on Please Don’t Make Me Download Another App | Our phones are being overrun 3 months ago:
One big supermarket chain here has an app where you get a few cents bonus discount on already discounted items with the app coupon. The in-store announcement praises it as the first place of some insitute’s supermarket app ranking. Even if that institute were legit, the ranking fair and the spot well-deserved, I always felt like that’s a competition with no winners.
- Comment on Please Don’t Make Me Download Another App | Our phones are being overrun 3 months ago:
Particularly since some companies have made their websites intentionally shit so that you’d be encouraged to use the app instead. I noticed that with out local flavour of door dash, where the website got slower and clunkier and generally more shit right around the same time that the “Use our app!” banners got more obnoxious.
- Comment on Microsoft retires WordPad after 28 years — app no longer available as of Windows 11 24H2 3 months ago:
I don’t think that’s a reasonable solution
Is that really a reasonable solution?
No. Of course not. My comment was tongue in cheek.
- Comment on Microsoft retires WordPad after 28 years — app no longer available as of Windows 11 24H2 3 months ago:
I suppose you could install Word. If you want just Word, you can jump through a few hoops to make the Office Deployment Tool install only Word.
I don’t think that is a reasonable solution for your use case, but I suspect making people use (and buy) the actual Office Suite is the motivation.
- Comment on I have the weirdest aesthetic preferences 3 months ago:
Here here, have some Chai. Take a break and
everything.should.be(‘fine’) - Comment on I have the weirdest aesthetic preferences 3 months ago:
that’s more of a web design distinction
I think that was the point of “someone rescue me from frontend dev” - if they’re doing so much frontend design work that they instinctively get pedantic about padding vs. margin, they need help.
- Comment on Clipped it blud 3 months ago:
rizz is also used to mean flirt. So “I like you” “Are you flirting with me?”
- Comment on Launches 4 months ago:
But we gave him a nice little prison stay to write his manifesto in! Surely he learned his lesson and won’t attempt to overthrow democracy again, right?
…right?
- Comment on STAR WARS Jedi: Survivor gets Denuvo DRM removed, plus performance improvements 4 months ago:
Fallen Order ran well for me on my potato (GTX 970 + some 4th gen i5) back when I played it. I’m not sure how my new rig will handle Survivor, but I’m starting to be cautiously optimistic.