XMPP vs Matrix: Whose King of Federation?

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨SummerBreeze@monero.town⁩ to ⁨privacyguides@lemmy.one⁩

https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-sucks/

XMPP and Matrix are two competing federated end-to-end encrypted messengers. XMPP is far better, on server cost decentralization, speed over Tor, degoogled push notifications, multi-identities, and overall privacy. So if Matrix is inferior centralized bloatware, why is it more popular? Especially among techies, who should in theory understand these concepts.

This brand new video gives a quick overview of the technical reasons that XMPP is the gold standard king of federation. And it briefly discusses how Matrix manages to push it’s agenda: …simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-…

Some critics will say that “Matrix is a complete package, while XMPP is fragmented”. This is essentially propaganda, because all the XMPP clients interact (Dino, Gajim, conversations, monocles). The only one that doesn’t interact is OTR encryption from pidgin which provides an alternative for hardcore cypherpunks who want to destroy the encryption keys when the conversation is done. So because one single client has an alternative use case, the Matrix cheerleaders want us to fill out Google Captcha spyware to register on Matrix.org because it costs so much to self-host.

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Comments

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derin@lemmy.beru.co ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This video: “Matrix really bad, xmpp really good. Trust me bro.”

Probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever had to watch - regardless of the arguments being made. Also, the narrator sounds like a broken TikTok AI voice.

Just some responses:

you don’t have to use matrix.org, there are other sites you can sign up for (and thus avoid Google captcha)

you don’t have to use element, there are other clients (including element forks, if you want some of its beta features)

You can use ntfy and host your own push notifications - but for instant notifications on Android you’ll always need GMS as Android won’t allow an alternative. (and, no, I’d rather not root my phone, thanks)

re: xmpp is easier to setup: first pick a server, then deploy it, then pick a client. Just like Matrix. Almost like they’re both very similar.

So much trash in this video, it’s crazy.

If you like XMPP, use it. If you like Matrix, use it.
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- MasterBuilder@lemmy.one ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Thanks for enumerating the counter points. I’m immediately turned off by his vocal style, but I can look past that long enough to evaluate the content.
  
  I have two big issues with it:
  
  His assertions lack references to supporting evidence
  
  his political allegiance gives me pause
  
  I will check out his content more before I write him off.
  
  It appears the android client he used is Cheogram, which I use. It is forked from Conversations, and is excellent. JMP.CHAT maintains it, and pretty much supports all of the xmpp standards. Including gateways to phone PBX, SMS, and Matrix.
  
  They and sopranica offer fully compliant servers, including self hosting.
  
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- sir_reginald@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  idk about the rest but the $5 Hetzner box running Synapse is inaccurate. While you can definitely run either Prosody or Synapse in the same box, Prosody consumes much less resources, which means that if, for example, a $5 box can run a 500 users Prosody (XMPP) server, that same box running Synapse could allocate only around 100 users
  
  (not actual numbers, I haven’t done any real benchmark other than installing both of them in mg Raspberry Pi, mess around with both and test how Prosody’s resources consumption is much lower, both on “idle” and when receiving traffic)
  
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  - derin@lemmy.beru.co ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Sorry, I meant for personal use. It’s absolutely okay for a synapse server running 1~5 users connecting to large rooms and using multiple Appservices for bridging in other networks.
    
    Source: Been doing that for 3+ years.
    
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  - ninchuka@lemmy.one ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    try conduit if you want a HS thats alot more optimized and runs well without a ton of resources
    
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- SummerBreeze@monero.town ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  You can’t join group chats of any decent size on Synapse. Put your money where your mouth is, how much you want to bet that you can’t setup synapse on a $5 hetzner and join the official Matrix.org group chat?
  
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  - derin@lemmy.beru.co ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Yep, I’ve got 4gb of RAM and 2 vCPUs and am in Synapse Admins with 10.9k users. Sooo… Yeah?
    
    Again, though, if you want to use XMPP just use it - stop lying to people to get them into your camp.
    
    It’s not a fucking soccer team.
    
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furrowsofar@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
What is the story with XMPP anyway. For a while, maybe 10 or more years ago it looked like the thing. Then it kind of imploded. Do people actually use it?

I know FSF may still have a server. DuckDuckGo did for a while. Maybe still does.

Biggest issues I ever had with it were firewall traversal. Most servers did not offer tls 443 at the time. The video chat extension was not wide spread either. Good public servers were sometimes hard to find too plus there was some spam.

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- derin@lemmy.beru.co ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  It still exists; it’s fine - for all intents and purposes. It fizzled out because most of the features people wanted were optional extensions to the protocol, so you wouldn’t have every feature with every client/server.
  
  Say what you want about Matrix, having one company pushing it with a core API and user-facing application that is “good enough” (I’m not a fan of Element myself, but it does the trick for normal people looking to sign up) makes it easier to adopt.
  
  Case in point, check out the software page of the XMPP.org website. For each piece of software there’s a small dropdown showing you how compliant it is with each standard. That kind of decision making - beyond just “which one looks/feels the nicest” - is kind of what’s been holding XMPP back all these years. (in my opinion)
  
  Shame, too, as XMPP has always been pretty great.
  
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  - furrowsofar@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Thanks. Yes it had a lot of potential. Was always confusing too… what client… what server… what should work.
    
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- MasterBuilder@lemmy.one ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Check out lemmy.ml/c/sopranica for full featured XMPP implementations.
  
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  - CommunityLinkFixer@lemmings.world [bot] ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !sopranica@lemmy.ml
    
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luthis@lemmy.nz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Goddam that dude’s voice is annoying. Excellent points though, I’m going to investigate xmpp

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Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Costs so much to self host?

What a joke.

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petrescatraian@libranet.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@SummerBreeze I am not on Matrix.org (despite the fact I don't know whether I have completed any captcha or not).
But yea, on XMPP the gold standard is pretty much OMEMO these days. And the fact that both Google and Facebook adopted it at some point in time tells a lot about how mature the project is.
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fiat_lux@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
From XMPP.org, a couple of choice extension specifications:

XEP-0161: Abuse Reporting

####Abstract
This document specifies an XMPP protocol extension for reporting abusive XMPP stanzas.
Status: Deferred
WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state.
Superseded By: XEP-0268

XEP-0268: Incident Handling

Status: Deferred
WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state.
Last Updated: 2012-05-29

Internet communication is not a simple thing, I greatly respect the need for standards to be defined and measured. And these specification documents provide really good guidance on considerations. But it is not feasible to find wide-spread success if there isn't even basic consensus on how to report spam after a hiatus of 10 years on v0.6 of a spec. There is a whole lot of process involved for a protocol that has very little decided.

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Shaul@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
OMEMO is fantastic! Doesn’t Matrix log history?

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- MasterBuilder@lemmy.one ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Xmpp servers can be configured to log history. I don’t know if Matrix always logs history, but I’ve read that it keeps a lot of metadata.
  
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XMPP vs Matrix: Whose King of Federation?

Comments

XEP-0161: Abuse Reporting

XEP-0268: Incident Handling