Comment on What do you think of Ro's decision? Are the Maquis doing the right thing?
Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 days ago The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…
According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds; effectively becoming subject to the Cardassian Union, which behaves aggressively towards them. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, due to a lack of official support from the Federation; who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek)#Storylin…
Bruh we’re on an internet board. You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?
For the sake of argument, how many years is the cutoff that flips it from “fine” to “evil”?
Multiple lifetimes having passed. As in, two sentient lifebeing lifespans, to the point where the original migration is completely removed from living memory. This isn’t “all the colonists knew from the moment they were born” this is “We set up that well 10 years ago, and we barely got to use it”. You worked as an agreement with an organisation, that has now had to adjust to harsh realities, and you also need to do so.
Citation needed? I don’t think that was ever stated, and “Journey’s End” is actually pretty clear about a new home having not even been identified.
Picard and Deanna Troi are on Dorvan V, conducting the initial meeting with the Tribal Council. Picard tells the Native American leaders that there is very little he can do to change the situation, as the decision was made at the very highest level of Starfleet. Anthwara, the leader of the tribe on Dorvan V, resists Picard’s attempt to convince them to relocate. Troi offers the suggestion of other available planets to colonize with similar environmental conditions, as well as their help in getting settled immediately. Anthwara responds saying that the environmental conditions themselves are not the basis of their location, but, rather, that the mountains the rivers and the sky welcomed them.
…fandom.com/…/Journey's_End_(episode)
My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it’s new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.
It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.
This interpretation is completely correct, but it sidesteps the two fundamental questions.
Do the colonists have the right to refuse to leave (I think you’ve made your position in that clear), and if so, do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?
When you word it like that, they deserve to defend themselves if/when the Cardassians violate the terms of the treaty they reached with the former UFP/Current Cardassian colonists.
Which is the key term here. AFAI remember, they agreed to be subjects of Cardassia, which means the planet belongs to the Cardassians, which means they are probably going to mine the shit out of every natural resource on there.
However, if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don’t thing was specified in the episode.
I understand and appriciate that, my point is more that they arrived at “a peace treaty” I don’t know if it was to stop a war, prevent a war or whatever, just that “A peace treaty” was made, and the circumstances are irrelevant to the matter of the right/wrongness of Maquis behaviour.
Like, putting a peace treaty at risk presumably would cause a war, or “bad things”. That’s what I mean. The Maquis are putting peace at risk by throwing their tantrum, regardless of how or why the peace treaty was needed.
There was an agreement made with Gul Evek - as you said, for them to be under Cardassian jurisdiction, if not full citizens:
However, that’s not the way things went down:
Those are the events that led to the Maquis as a resistance movement - before that, there were no Maquis, just colonists who stayed behind.
OK… but it very much feels like a protracted escalation that is to lay at the feet at the Colonists refusing the fucking leave, and the Cardassians acting, predictably like assholes.
I mean, this nails the fucking thing on the head. Bill wanted to take advantage of the hard work he did, which is fair. He was warned the Cardassians owned the planet now, and that if he wants to stay safe, he needs to leave, and that the Cardassians are assholes. He says no. Ok. The federations says “Look, we have this treaty, but we aren’t going to do jack to enforce it. You’re on your own”. He says OK. The Cardassians act like assholes. Shock , horror. Now Bill is mad, that the people he was told was going to fuck him over , fucked him over.
Let’s pan over to somewhere else now.
Imagine you are a Cardassian Colonist, and you are working on a terraforming mission. You’ve been on Unnamed Planetopia for 15 years and worked on a mine so that your family in Cardassia could afford a house or fucking whatever. Then, some human asshole bombs your planet with cobalt diselenide, and you gurgle to death as your lungs turn to liquid.
Your Cousin on Bill’s planet hears the news about yet another human acting like shit on an planet owned by Cardassia, and how you , and your entire colony was wiped out by that fearsome maverick, Michael Eddington, and he has enough of that poison to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ.
…fandom.com/…/For_the_Uniform_(episode)
Do you really think that this shit is making things any better for anyone? Does anyone expect Gul Generic to act civilised towards Bill getting in his face when his cousin and the entire fucking colony choked to death in agony?
Obviously, the tales in Star Trek, are morality plays based on things in history. The problem is that the federation is meant to be fair, just and able to provide everything people need.
It boils down to a few ideas :
Personal risk management
The colonists accepted the risk that the Cardassians would treat them unfairly, and the risk came out badly for them. Just like when people go skydiving or rock climbing and sign waivers to accept a personal risk, the colonists accepted the risk that the cardassians would treat them like shit. The federation can try to rescue them, and I’m sure the cardassians would let them flee, but they want to fight, and they fucking ask the federation for assistance. Bruh, fuck off. There are more controversial ways of looking at this, but , if you choose to take risks, don’t act out cry “unfair” when the risks don’t go your way. There are people like this IRL that gamble or make risky choices, and cry foul when it goes sour; it’s part and parcel of that risk. I’m not saying those people shouldn’t be offered assistance after, but insisting on validation that they didn’t make a mistake and to continue whatever lifestyle they want is bullshit.
Post war border settlements and their adjustments to the new borders
In IRL there are places that end up in the “wrong country” due to a settlement post war/conflict/treaty. The well being of those places are almost always dependent on what happens between the two countries in the following years. Some examples can be seen on wikipedia :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_cities
Some places of note to think about :
One of the weirdes enclave/exclave situations were set up in the border between India and Bangladesh, which literally lead to people dying and services being completely busted and inaccessible to local people. Its exact opposite would be Baarle-(Hertog/Nassau), where due to the Schangen agreement and the peace and co-operation between Belgium and the Netherlands, life in the village is peaceful and largely indifferent to the notions of enclaves and exclaves.
Alsace(–Lorraine) was a disputed territory between france and germany, especially during WW1, and a thorn in the side for negociations for peace. At present, similarly to Baarle, due to the peace between france and germany and the EU, things seem to be going all right for them. Same goes for Tyrol and Austria/Italy. There are contentions, but no one is getting blown up over it.
The “inevitability of the federation”
While this is not something that’s part of IRL, it is an interesting idea I saw in a video :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbys9HJvSXA (this fucking things is half an hour long)
Bottom line : The federation is too damn efficient for other cultures to not eventually make peace and trade with it instead of being a pain in their ass. They will inevitably stop wars with you, and start being your allies, one way or the other. It happened to the Klingons, and it “is happening” to
spoiler
the Romulans and the Ferengi.
NB: I am not talking about post burn. Fuck you, I’m not going to cover an entire millenia of fake history.
Eventually, the federation will settle the disputes with cardassia, and establish more amicable relationships with them. Then the DMZ will be pacified, things will get bettter for the inhabitants of planets in and around the DMZ, both federation and cardassian.
But you gotta let go man. Diplomacy can’t continue when you’re polluting entire fucking planets and harming civilians on either side.
I’m tired. What was the question again?