Comment on What do you think of Ro's decision? Are the Maquis doing the right thing?

ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

• Skullgrid@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…

  According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds; effectively becoming subject to the Cardassian Union, which behaves aggressively towards them. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, due to a lack of official support from the Federation; who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.

  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek)#Storylin…

  Bruh we’re on an internet board. You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

  For the sake of argument, how many years is the cutoff that flips it from “fine” to “evil”?

  Multiple lifetimes having passed. As in, two sentient lifebeing lifespans, to the point where the original migration is completely removed from living memory. This isn’t “all the colonists knew from the moment they were born” this is “We set up that well 10 years ago, and we barely got to use it”. You worked as an agreement with an organisation, that has now had to adjust to harsh realities, and you also need to do so.

  Citation needed? I don’t think that was ever stated, and “Journey’s End” is actually pretty clear about a new home having not even been identified.

  Picard and Deanna Troi are on Dorvan V, conducting the initial meeting with the Tribal Council. Picard tells the Native American leaders that there is very little he can do to change the situation, as the decision was made at the very highest level of Starfleet. Anthwara, the leader of the tribe on Dorvan V, resists Picard’s attempt to convince them to relocate. Troi offers the suggestion of other available planets to colonize with similar environmental conditions, as well as their help in getting settled immediately. Anthwara responds saying that the environmental conditions themselves are not the basis of their location, but, rather, that the mountains the rivers and the sky welcomed them.

  …fandom.com/…/Journey's_End_(episode)

  My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it’s new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.

  original

  • ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

    It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

    My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it’s new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.

    This interpretation is completely correct, but it sidesteps the two fundamental questions.

    Do the colonists have the right to refuse to leave (I think you’ve made your position in that clear), and if so, do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?

    original

    • Skullgrid@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?

      When you word it like that, they deserve to defend themselves if/when the Cardassians violate the terms of the treaty they reached with the former UFP/Current Cardassian colonists.

      Which is the key term here. AFAI remember, they agreed to be subjects of Cardassia, which means the planet belongs to the Cardassians, which means they are probably going to mine the shit out of every natural resource on there.

      However, if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don’t thing was specified in the episode.

      It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

      I understand and appriciate that, my point is more that they arrived at “a peace treaty” I don’t know if it was to stop a war, prevent a war or whatever, just that “A peace treaty” was made, and the circumstances are irrelevant to the matter of the right/wrongness of Maquis behaviour.

      it is to stop an interplanetary war.

      The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…

      You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

      It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

      Like, putting a peace treaty at risk presumably would cause a war, or “bad things”. That’s what I mean. The Maquis are putting peace at risk by throwing their tantrum, regardless of how or why the peace treaty was needed.

      original

      • ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don’t thing was specified in the episode.

        There was an agreement made with Gul Evek - as you said, for them to be under Cardassian jurisdiction, if not full citizens:

        PICARD: Anthwara, I want to make absolutely sure that you understand the implications of this agreement. By giving up your status as Federation citizens, any future request you or your people make to Starfleet will go unanswered. You will be on your own and under Cardassian jurisdiction.

        ANTHWARA: I understand, Captain. And we are prepared to take that risk. Will the Cardassian government honour your agreement here?

        GUL EVEK: I believe I can convince them that this is an equitable solution. I cannot speak for every Cardassian you may encounter, but if you leave us alone I suspect that we will do the same. Will this be acceptable to the Starfleet Command?

        PICARD: It will not be easy, but with Admiral Necheyev’s support, I think they will go along with it in the end.

        However, that’s not the way things went down:

        HUDSON: I knew him. Bill Samuels was a farmer. He cultivated his land for twenty years. He raised two kids on that land. He made something out of that land and the Federation told him he had to give it all up to the Cardassians. Well, he just was not willing to do that.

        SISKO: And it was people like him who made both sides realise that some accommodation had to be made for the colonies so they could stay.

        HUDSON: The Cardassians have no intention of allowing these people to stay. They will either force them out or they will kill them. It’s already started. Not a day goes when there’s not some random act of violence against our people. Every Federation colonist knows you do not go out alone at night. Can you imagine living in that kind of fear?

        SISKO: If you’re saying the Cardassian authorities are not enforcing the laws, we can-

        HUDSON: Enforcing the laws? The Cardassian authorities were part of a mob that stoned two colonists on the streets of Ropal City three days ago.

        SISKO: That’s something the Federation can take up with the Cardassians at the highest level.

        HUDSON: Well, that will help a lot. The word is the Cardassian High Command is arming their colonists to the teeth.

        Those are the events that led to the Maquis as a resistance movement - before that, there were no Maquis, just colonists who stayed behind.

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