Calling someone a Nazi is quite a serious accusation, and it’s going to need a lot better justification than that. I post gay porn on Twitter, and Elon lets me do that. Does that mean he’s gay too?
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WallEx@feddit.de 2 months agoHe lets Nazis use his platform and calls it “freedom of speech”, although this exact freedom is limited by the wellbeing of others. And promoting Nazis is harmful to not only minorities, but the society in my opinion, as they strive to split the society with populist arguments.
Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee 2 months ago
theangryseal@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You’ve tied my head up in knots with this one. Haha
As to the argument above yours, fostering a space for Nazis to grow their movement is scary. I get that some segments of society think that posting gay porn is scary too, but gay porn never led to death camps for anybody.
I think all ideas are worth discussing, because if they’re hiding in quiet corners there are no voices of reason to refute them. It’s hard to take that stance nowadays with the internet working the way it does. Algorithms feeding information to people just because that information gets engagement is frightening.
I had a conversation with my neighbor yesterday about how he got interested in the whole furry thing. He said that initially, he read the critical comments online, took them seriously, thought it was funny, so he engaged in harassment of furries. His engagement led him to more furry videos. He began to like some of the people he was engaging with. Fast forward to now and he’s got fursuits hanging in his closet and everyone he hangs with is also a furry.
It got me thinking about how a lot of kids end up going down these rabbit holes online. Not that I consider being a furry a bad thing. My daughter is into that stuff and I support her being herself. His example just made me think of how other people fall into extremism online.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Nazis say they want to murder people until there are enough of rhem to do so. Gay porn afaik has nor murdered anyone and has no agenda to do so.
1984@lemmy.today 2 months ago
I disagree. It’s better to let naziz talk so their opinions can be argued against. Nothing is solved by censorship. The opinions are still there, you just don’t see them.
Famko@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I don’t know, maybe because it’s hard to not be sensitive about ideas that threaten your life and very existence?
Twitter disproportionately take action against LGBTQ+ individuals and ignore nazis. There is no debate that Elon is promoting right wing ideas by protecting nazi speech.
1984@lemmy.today 2 months ago
So you meant that the platform is nazi because it’s not supporting lgbtq+? Im not on that platform and don’t know anything about it, but the word nazi has traditionally not been used for gender issues, but race issues.
Famko@lemmy.world 2 months ago
It’s well known that Nazis aren’t very fond of lgbtq+ people, despite them being more known for being anti-Semitic and just generally racist.
But I would like to know, what would constitute promoting nazi ideals for you?
ShepherdPie@midwest.social 2 months ago
This is such a naive and ignorant take that assumes everything is argued in good faith and not with an army of bots posting literal propaganda, lies, and disinformation in order to brainwash people who don’t know any better.
What you’re arguing for is allowing cancer to spread rather than seeing a doctor about it “because the immune system will take care of it.”
1984@lemmy.today 2 months ago
That’s a good point. Thanks.
AA5B@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I also used to be a free speech absolutist, but they took that and ran with it. Just like so many other things in modern life, the crazies take over. If I can no longer use the service then they’ve gone too far and I’ll move to one that’s still civil (why can’t the nazis stay in their damn subreddit instead of infecting mine?)
Then we came to the us 2016 election and all the fallout since. I was just flabbergasted when people in the public space started denying reality. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up and somehow still had followers. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up and still had followers that turned into votes. We all saw the point where crazies took that free speech and ran with it, where the uneducated and gullible or desperate hung in their every word. We saw damage to society right in front of our eyes. Before this, I would have said free speech at least brings it out into the open and lets people become educated. However now I see some people will say or do anything for the notoriety, some people will follow it blindly and can’t be educated, and that directly increase divisiveness, violence, lawlessness, harassment and discrimination. I don’t know a better approach but I do know the current status is not ok.
Maybe it’s as simple as consequences. You have a right to free speech but you also need to face the consequences of your words. In the past that may have meant you’re ostracized from various parts of society, or marginalized, but online that doesn’t seem to work anymore. Maybe the Alex Jones lawsuit will help or maybe we need to find ways to facilitate situations like that: you have free speech but also face the consequences of your words, which may include taking the fortune you made with your “alternative facts”. But when we have a presidential campaign that names it, is proud of it, and people still follow, what can we do? I’ve never been so disappointed in my fellow supposedly sentient beings
LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I think that free speech is okay, IF it’s consensual and if each person is represented by themselves. I do not think bots and duplicate accounts are free speech. I do not think spamming messages and overwhelming media is free speech.
Imo if I dislike what people are saying, then it’s up to me to look at things systemically rather than personally. Fascism seems to be akin to a societal response to external threats, almost like a scab forming. Which is why so many leftists do indeed turn to fascist methods to fight fascists - wasps swarming their hive.
If we reduced external threats, maybe modeled non-threatening behaviors, it could help every day. The Black Panthers, for instance, used to feed people (reducing the external threat of starvation). Remember how friendly everyone used to be? I try to bring some of that back by complimenting people, asking about their day. It may seem minor, but that’s what communities are built on. And modeling prosocial behavior is, at its core, antifascist.
What happened in 2016 was so clear, along with Jan 6th. It is quite disturbing how many people still support him - I went on vacation to Newport.Beach recently, near LA, and there were multiple businesses there and on Balboa Beach openly supporting Trump. I saw Trump merch everywhere including hats. It was honestly insane to see something like that within 30 miles of a major city. These are people with money and access to education (not that they use it…). These are some of the people who literally own most of the American economy (California is the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world by itself). And they don’t want to acknowledge climate change or that fascism is bad. It’s bad here.
Reducing freedom of speech wouldn’t change how bad things are here.
And please give your fellow Americans some grace. Yes, it’s wild they can’t see what’s going on, but it’s kinda obvious someone took the CIA’s classic plan for destabilizing a country and uno reversed it onto us, right? Like the obvious attacks on education, business, medicine, etc, this isn’t happening on accident. There are countries paying billions for your mom and my dad and everyone’s grandparents to be hypnotized into self sabotaging.
Wars aren’t always fought with guns
1984@lemmy.today 2 months ago
That makes sense I guess. I don’t live in the US and I didn’t follow the election but I understand it was very strange. But just look at the political leaders there. Of course it’s going to be an absurd election.
It’s like picking between cartoon characters.
That being said, I appriciate your view on free speach. When it seems that people are not rational, of course you don’t want them to have a vote.
WallEx@feddit.de 2 months ago
I am not talking about feeling attacked, but rather to not give anti-societal movements any platform.
Also, that ideology is not based in factual arguments, so why would arguing succeed? The real solution would be for them to get to know foreigners to seez that they are just people, but that doesn’t happen on twitter.
Yes, I see the difference, but its indicative of his ideology I think.