Comment on Most consumers hate the idea of AI-generated customer service
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 4 months agoI worked for an ISP. These problems are rarely ever ISP problems. It goes like this. ISP offers 50Mbps–1.2Gbps. If you are a cheap bastard and opt for the lowest tier plan you get a cheap hardware and if you don’t ask for an upgrade you’ll run that box until it doesn’t work. So you have people rocking hardware that was manufactured in 2009 and installed in 2014 wondering why their cheap ass WIFI4 box installed in their basement doesn’t work so well in half their house in 2024.
What’s more they have a download speed that would have been good in 2009 only instead of 2 computers they now have 20 connected devices and stream in 4K.
What’s worse is the rental on that shit WIFI4 box is about $20 a month or $2400 over 10 years so your paying for a BMW and getting a Pinto.
Smart people buy their own access points preferably wifi 7. Get one per story of your house and connect them with a physical Ethernet cable. Arrange them so that they overlap but not that much so that you don’t have dead zones. If you work from home get a proper desk and run a physical Ethernet cable to your device. Also if you have devices that are literally 2.5 feet from each other and they support physical network cables just plug them in. Don’t be that guy spending an hour trying to figure out why his router and his printer/tv aren’t friends when they are almost touching each other.
The hardware the ISP provides is always an ISP problem. Provide hardware that actually works.
Also, unless you’re fiber, you don’t provide the bandwidth you actually sell people, which is also an ISP problem. Every single customer who can’t get their advertised speed at peak load should be a mandatory criminal case of fraud.
The majority of users can’t get anywhere near advertised speeds because the are using cheap devices to connect to their cheap wifi and WIFI in general isn’t expected to provide plan speeds in the first place. Also bandwidth is oversold. An ISP that serves 1,000,000 people with Gbps doesn’t actually have 1 Pbps bandwidth available to it. Most people should be able to get within 95% WHEN CONNECTED BY A WIRE TO MODEM most of the time and 90% of plan speed near all the time.
Did you know your phone doesn’t work if too many people in the same area try to use them at once because they don’t actually have enough capacity to serve everyone at once?
The hardware the company provides unconditionally needs to be able to handle the full advertised bandwidth.
I know bandwidth is oversold. It’s overt fraud. “Up to” is horseshit. “Most of the time” is fraud. Excluding documented weather outages, any scenario where a user is not able to reach the speed listed on the ad (that’s not a limitation on the other side) for 5 minutes in a month should be fines so high that it will take years of that customer’s subscription to earn it back. It’s not possible to not be fraudulent.
Over-subscription is literally how the entire internet works. Most devices spend 21 hours doing a whole lot of nothing and 3 hours either doing really quick bursty things like spending 3 seconds loading a page followed by 3 minutes interacting with it or relatively low speed things like streaming 50Mbps. Having a higher speed just means that when you want something to happen it happens quickly and it happens even if you have 12 other devices doing the same thing.
Normal internet is oversubscribed by about 20x and gives most folks 90% of their plan speed at the modem most of the time. Dedicated bandwidth by definition means that you rent enough capacity for them to serve 1Gbps every second of every day even though you will use almost none of it. For reference 1Gbps for a month is about 327 TB of data. Most people use between 0.1-3TB over the course of a month.
Dedicated connections are a lot more expensive to provide and a lot more expensive to contract for. That 1Gbps connection right now costs about $1000 per month. Your requirement would require ISP to sell only much lower connection speeds for at much higher prices. It would in fact actually break the internet as we know it. It’s not exactly shocking to imagine that buying 100–1000 times what you need is expensive. A better standard would be to enforce 90% of plan speed 90% of the time measured at the modem with a week to correct if less than acceptable. Some european company actually makes an app to enforce their particular standard and takes the guess work out of measurement. I like the idea.
Also its impossible to guarantee that customers will in fact even reach those speeds over wifi as its a function of the customers actual space, materials used to build the home, what’s in the wall, network hardware, AND wireless clients. You only get really fast connectivity over 5/6Gh which is short range (100-200ft), only with quite modern equipment on both sides.
This means that your 2015 $200 modem/router combo with 2018 clients is probably giving you 300Mbps in your living room and 50Mbps upstairs even if the modem itself is getting 1 Gbps. This is just how wifi is. Your ISP isn’t going to be responsible for installing a $1000 worth of hardware so you can get plan speed upstairs on your $20 a month service. There are contractors who WILL do that for you for a hefty price. You’ll be paying for the $1000 worth of hardware and a professionals time.
That’s cool and all but it was a regional problem on their end, I learned after trying the whatsapp bot, which worked way better than the phone piece of shit.
You know you didn’t have to commit modemacide. You could have actually just asked for new hardware.
They refused, I did what I had to do :)
What happens when whatever promotion you are on rolls off and the hardware now costs you $15–20 bucks a month? Owning your hardware makes imo a ton of sense still.
my_hat_stinks@programming.dev 4 months ago
So the ISP isn’t to blame when the cheap ISP-provided hardware fails, and the solution isn’t for the ISP to replace insufficient ISP-owned hardware but for you to buy your own instead?
The “wire everything” approach is a little excessive for most home networks too, outside of exceptional circumstances modern WiFi on modern hardware is more than enough for home users. It’s only worth the time and money to wire everything if you’ve identified specific issues with signal loss or noise, don’t just do it by default.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 4 months ago
I don’t know why the ISP would initiate an upgrade you never asked for especially when they provide both faster speeds and better hardware as an up sell. If you want to live in 2009 it is indeed your problem. I made a fair bit of commission upgrading people to much much better hardware and speed for not much more money. Hi would you like your internet to be 20x faster and be able to use it upstairs for 15% more. Yes of course you do.
You should wire
This is where your money comes from it should work as fast and as consistently as possible. Being 10% less reliable isn’t acceptable.
If your console, cable box, and TV are all on the same shelf as the modem/router why are they competing for bandwidth with your laptop?
The speed the second or subsequent devices are able to provide to all of its clients put together is limited by the speed of its connection to the first device and if its too far for a 5Ghz connection this wont be that fast. EG your upstairs router might support in theory a 600Mbps connection but if its connection is 80Mbps and 4 devices are connected an individual client may get as little as 20Mbps even if its connection to the router/AP is 600Mbps
my_hat_stinks@programming.dev 4 months ago
See that’s your entire problem right there, you’re in sales. Your incentive is to drain every penny you can out of customers through useless up-sells and selling hardware to get the service they’re already paying for.
You literally just argued that if your 600mbps router only supplies an 80mbps connection then your 600mbps connection is 80mbps. And speed isn’t divided equally by the number of devices connected either, that’s just ridiculous. The impact of a connected but idle device is minimal. Also, why would you need 600mbps for only 4 devices? You could stream 4k video on all four devices 24/7 and you’re still not using even a quarter of that bandwidth; you’re looking at a recommendation of only 15mbps to 25mbps per user for a 4k-viable internet connection.
Here’s a ping to my stock ISP-supplied router on another floor and three rooms away via wifi:
It’s obviously impossible to improve a 0% packet loss, switching to a wired connection would be a considerable cost for minimal benefit (though admittedly that ping is unusually good, I’d normally expect slightly over 1ms average). I’m also getting over my advertised speeds according to fast.com and speedtest.net despite being on wifi and running through Mullvad so I suppose the problem might just be that I’m not using whichever scummy ISP you work for.
I have a home office and have work from home (or hybrid) for pretty much my entire career, even before WFH was normalised. I can assure you a wired connection is not a necessity to work from home.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Bandwidth is the amount of shit the modem can pull down and thereafter divided per client further subject to the limits of the service itself and any chokepoints in the network with data hitting the client no faster than the slowest leg.
As far as wifi 5/6Ghz is fairly fast but good for no more than 100–200 ft inside and oft less depending on material in between and conditions and subject to interference to boot. Most people in multi story dwellings have poor connectivity over 5Ghz upstairs without a second AP on that floor and rely on slower 2.4Ghz and furthermore may have a limit to the connectivity between AP which effects downstream clients.
That is what I meant by the 80MBps if the link between Router and AP is 80Mbps the AP can only provide a maximum of 80Mbps connectivity with the outside world shared between all its clients no matter how strong its connection. This is why I suggested a wire between router and AP. Factually real world clients usually have 20-300Mbps over wifi and need nicer clients AND equipment to provide good service whereas wires provide 1Gbps over cheap as equipment from 10 years ago.
P.S. I worked in support and had a really good solve rate I made money mostly by helping people improve their service in tangible ways that made sense to them. Just because an industry is scummy doesn’t mean everyone in it is.