Operation Al-Aqsa Flood came after fifteen years of Gaza being besieged by the IDF. Yes civilians died in it and that’s tragic, but Hamas did not create the conditions under which the operation occurred, Israel did. Hamas does not have the power and the international backing to end this conflict, Israel does. Hamas has not spent seven and a half decades ethnically cleansing Israelis - Israel has spent that time ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Anything short of support for Hamas is support for genocide.
Lianodel@ttrpg.network 2 months ago
Yes, obviously. Why do you ask? Since you asked, I may as well ask, is Israel killing civilians a bad thing?
Sure, if you see them, kick them to the curb. Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Hard to tell at this point. Hamas flags, people cosplaying as Hamas, people saying October 7 was justified. Antisemitism is becoming more and more commonplace. Protests at synagogues, attacks on Jewish businesses.
The Palestinian movement hasn’t made a whole lot of effort in clearly denouncing Hamas. If it were a non-violent resistance movement, then I wouldn’t hesitate to support it. But it’s not a non-violent movement.
I’ve had many conversations with Palestinian supporters on Lemmy and they’ve convinced me it’s a fascist movement. Almost the exact same conversations as I’ve had with MAGAs, just with a different target for their hatred.
Lianodel@ttrpg.network 2 months ago
Alright.
Firstly, I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That’s not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don’t draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there’s no conversation to be had, because we’re not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it’s the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.
But it’s also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I’d like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
It’s kinda like the old saw “the best argument for gun control is a five minute conversation with a gun-rights advocate”.
The best argument against the Palestinian movement is a conversation with a “free Palestine” type.
Are you saying you haven’t noticed the antisemitism in this movement? Or are you just looking the other way?
Begging the question. Ever consider that you’re framing of Israel is either unfair and inaccurate? Civilian casualties are always bad, but you’re not framing it being civilian casualties in a war. Because that leads us back to how this war started, which was the genocidal acts committed by Hamas on October 7. But you don’t frame it as civilian casualties in a war, you frame it as “Israel killing civilians.” As if it’s impossible for any of the bullets and rockets fired by Hamas to kill a Palestinian.
This is entirely a propaganda thing. Thinking solely in terms of “framing” and refusing to think about certain facts which are inconvenient to the narrative that you’ve chosen to subscribe to. You think in terms of framing, but I’m thinking in terms of facts. Hamas deliberately killed as many people they could, except for the people they took hostage. They took hostages to force Israel into a ground war in Gaza. And the war continues on because Hamas refuses to release those hostages. Those are facts, but since it’s inconvenient to the “Israel kills civilians” narrative and screams about genocide you’ll just go on pretending Israel is the bad guy while Hamas holds Israeli civilians hostage, which is a war crime and the reason why this war (along with the civilian casualties associated with a war urban combat) drags on.