I've seen what's inside the speed controllers and battery monitoring circuitry for Chinese EVs. I don't think I want to be anywhere near them.
Comment on China is attempting to mirror the entire GitHub over to their own servers, users report
sunzu@kbin.run 4 months agoAs China leap frogged west in solar and EV tech
TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org 4 months ago
ikidd@lemmy.world 4 months ago
That they got from the West when CATL bought out a bankrupt US company that had developed LFP to commercial viability.
IHeartBadCode@kbin.run 4 months ago
I think the two of you are focusing on either end of this and not really seeing the bigger picture.
China absolutely (stole / acquired) all the technology they have for solar, EV, and grid based storage. They have literally innovated 0% in this particular industry. I don't think there's any debating this aspect.
At the same time, China has pour billions into domestic production of solar panels, lithium and sodium batteries, vehicle production, and grid based storage solutions the likes that no other country has even remotely attempted. They recent demonstrated cheap sodium based 10MWh storage systems that can be built using seawater sodium. Something that California makes a shit ton of in their desalination plants, that they currently just shove the salt off as waste byproduct.
Like, if we wanted to, that kind of thing that China just demonstrated, we could be building GWh level storage systems for 10% the cost of a 1 GWh nuclear facility strictly off a byproduct that California distinctly doesn't want and is literally paying people to take away. They could literally flip a cost into a revenue stream, but we don't because "reasons". We could literally have large batteries charged in Utah, and then use rail to move the sodium based batteries into the Eastern sections of the US, using literally the same infrastructure that we use today to move the tons of coal we move around for the TWh of power we generate. We could be doing this today. But we don't because many nations just buy the arguments politicians feed them, or "it's complicated". And then there's China demonstrating at small scale that it's doable. So instead we say "oh well it wouldn't scale" or "oh well you stole all that tech" because apparently our pride is more important than climate change.
The thing is, yes China has not committed to educating their population into novel development of these technologies. But at the same time they are deploying this stuff at rates every other developed nation has said they'd like to try and do that one day off in the future. Or can't do right now because their hands are tied.
For the folks pointing at China as the enemy, fine. I'm not going to debate it. But there's still things to learn from what they are doing with that stolen technology. Do we need to cozy up to them? Nah. But they're showing off that grid based storage at scale and cheap is a thing even though people like France and the US say that such a thing is not possible at this time. They are showing LFP is viable if you're willing to take an initial domestic loss to invest in the infrastructure, something the US citizens know but keep saying "well oil interest are holding us back". No, there's only a few dozen oil execs, there over a three hundred million non-oil execs. It's a lack of will power.
Like most western nations keep coming up with excuses for delaying EV and green technology pushes and China keeps showing many of the excuses given to be false. And we know they're false. We know the expectation of no less than $36k USD for an EV is some bullshit that car companies are pulling to offset all the baggage they have from leaving ICE. We know we could have charge stations every 100 miles on the Interstates, but we don't because oil companies don't want to lose their investments in the infrastructure they've got right now.
We know the reasons being given by our political and industry leaders are all bullshit. China is over there showing IRL how bullshit they are. Yeah, they stole everything they have, but at the same time all this "oh we couldn't possibly do that here in the US" is shown for the BS it is, that we already know it to be, in China.
I mean, great, we're all very smart people. Awesome. What good is that awesome smartness if we keep letting dumb fucks in politics pander off dumb excuses for why we don't get to enjoy any of the stuff that awesome smartness provides? What good is being innovative if corporations keep handicapping that innovation to ensure they have a steady stream of revenue?
I mean yeah, let's call China out of the bullshit they pull. But I mean, let's not forget all the damn windows we've broken ourselves in our glass house here.
foofiepie@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Just my take but:
Like them or not (and IMV they are a serious threat), China’s system enforces a strategic view, long term, more like a 100yr plan.
We don’t. It’s by election cycle or quarterly earnings report.
These things all make more sense if you see them impassionately, and without an ethical filter, from a long term POV.
China will do what’s best for China in the long term. Irrespective of ‘politics’ that are like ripples upon a rising tide.
ikidd@lemmy.world 4 months ago
I absolutely do not discredit the scaling they’ve done in the manufacturing process, but if there’s one thing China does well, it’s scale manufacturing. That’s usually because they have much lower safety and quality standards, and might bring them up later on. But what they don’t seem to have, at least in these industries, is innovation in the underlying technology to any appreciable extent.
But hooboy, can they pump out solar panels and batteries when they’re taken off the leash.
And abso-fucking-lutely, we in Western countries continuously shoot ourselves in the foot with short-term thinking. There was a time it seemed when there were plans like the New Deal where thought was given to decades down the road. Today, the longest term outlook you see if 4 years. And that’s common across the board, I wouldn’t even place that just at the feet of the US. It’s a damn shame, and it’s the reason the middle class is getting hammered for the last 40 years. But we do know how to R&D, just now we can’t get build a manufacturing base without some grifter taking all the subsidies and shipping them offshore.
Now I’m depressed.
bufalo1973@lemmy.ml 4 months ago
Why move the batteries instead of “moving” the electrons? You generate the electricity anywhere you want and use Therese nice cables that happen to be everywhere.
IHeartBadCode@kbin.run 4 months ago
HVAC suffers from loss over distance. Large distances like what's between the western US deserts and the eastern seaboard would suffer large losses to heat via HVAC.
HVDC can solve this, but that requires an investment into this kind of infrastructure. Moving the batteries is using a preexisting infrastructure because the assumption is that new infrastructure won't be upgraded. We will build new so long as a ROI has quick turn around, another assumption here being that long term profit planning won't happen so everything needs to be planned to have profiting within two or less years. But we won't build new if usage of that new happens a decade later.
We could totally send the electrons over, but sending the batteries over is adding a bunch of assumptions that people won't want to do massive investments in basic infrastructure to facilitate that, so we've got run with what we have that can ensure profits in a fairly rapid pace before investors bore of it or the next election cycle tosses everything in chaos.
sunzu@kbin.run 4 months ago
That's called value investing..... Maybe our dear leader should learn how to manage national wealth instead of cutting companies and allowing a geopolitical adversary to take over tech/IP
Ie this is not a flex you think it is, it just proves my point that our dear leaders are incompetent imbiciles or worst... Bad faith actors.
No accountability leads to this sort of decision making lol
BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 4 months ago
Bad faith, for sure, made very clear in the last 20 years.