You’re mistaken about what he did.
Comment on Alex Jones' Infowars to Be Shut Down, Assets Liquidated
Lovstuhagen@hilariouschaos.com 3 months ago
Here is as good of a place as any to say it: the decision against him is bullshit.
Yes, he advanced a crazy conspiracy theory and I can see how it is harmful to the victims family that some very strange people have called them up and harassed them. But the answer to that is to punish exclusively the relevant parties - I do not believe Jones revealed any personal information about them, nor did he ever encourage people to harass them, so what’s the deal with him owing something like 1.5 billion?
Guy didn’t kill anybody.
It was just free speech.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 3 months ago
SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 3 months ago
So your clear on this going forward; the first amendment protects a persons speech from repercussions from the government. That’s it. Not from aggrieved parties. Not even from businesses deciding to sue. It means your city or state can’t censor you - the rest of society ABSOLUTELY can tho.
Free speech doesn’t mean you get to say whatever you want. Free speech means the government has to argue you back, if it decides, and not use the power of the state, and it’s monopoly of the use of violence against you.
If you want to burn a cross, go ahead. But you’re also free to experience the consequences within yr community - the government isn’t going to _protect _your decision to be inflammatory.
What I want to know, is if money is free speech and the government cannot impinge on that right, then how the fuck can the government charge us for ANYTHING, be that fines or services. All should of been rendered moot with citizens united.
sj_zero 3 months ago
Where do you think the 1.5 billion dollar judgement came from? God?
SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 3 months ago
Ok, the source of the judgement doesn’t eclipse me, nor do I see how that could be derived but you got there somehow so…
I’m speculating on the whether citizens united rescinds the gmnts ability to demand money, writ large, as that would impinge our 1st amendment. Punitive judgements, between separate parties neither of which are the government such as with Jones v Sandy Hook parents, I would assume wouldnt be effected because the judge is basically performing arbitrage. The DOL, permitting, and taxes are wholly separate issues. Likewise the EPA bringing a corp to court over pollution, or the SEC against bad actors illegally manipulating pump and dump. Not that cases like that couldn’t exist, but not with a government agency as an aggrieved party.
Ya follow? I don’t think its a difficult thought experiment.
Lovstuhagen@hilariouschaos.com 3 months ago
So your clear on this going forward; the first amendment protects a persons speech from repercussions from the government. That’s it. Not from aggrieved parties. Not even from businesses deciding to sue. It means your city or state can’t censor you - the rest of society ABSOLUTELY can tho.
I actually think the first amendment is to protect you from any kind of oppression by anyone, including your employer.
The government should ensure that your boss can’t fire you because you have the wrong opinion or some such.
I also do not understand the idea that he has the wrong opinion, you can sue him…!
To clarify, though: in matters of private affairs, it can constitute harassment or slander to knowingly spread lies that impact someone’s reputation with the design to curtail their ability to exercise their rights or do business.
But a different standard is applied to things in the public sphere - the wild speculation of people during a criminal trial makes sense, and any kind of discourse on publicly relevant events makes sense…
While it would be highly inappropriate to claim you are practicing free speech and serving the public interests by spreading malicious lies you know to be untrue about the woman down the street and her affair with the mailman.
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Because defamation is illegal. And just because you don’t directly tell people to harass others, if you tell lies with the intention of that happening, it’s also illegal.
Also doesn’t help that he didn’t show up to several trials (which made him lose by default) and lied about damn near everything.
SkybreakerEngineer@lemmy.world 3 months ago
The funny thing is, he absolutely did all those things. He sent “correspondents” to harass parents, on camera, at a funeral for the kids. He told viewers to follow and dox parents who tried to hide, and got one of his “investigators” to do a segment outside their home, after they had moved and changed their name.
He didn’t just mess with the trial, he did everything possible to mess with the legal process and was basically daring the judge to charge him with contempt. Including calling the judge a literal, biblical demon on the morning of a hearing.
The only tragedy here is that he didn’t have to sell everything off immediately, and instead got 2 years to burn as much as possible and hide the rest in his parents’ name.
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Wouldn’t surprise me but I haven’t followed this THAT closely. I’ve got better things to do with my time than find out he’s an even bigger piece of shit than I already know he is.
ExperiencedWinter@lemmy.world 3 months ago
But you couldn’t find a better use of that time then defending the guy?
Lovstuhagen@hilariouschaos.com 3 months ago
I remember someone saying he did these things but I acutally never saw evidence of it.
It always bothered me how you were not allowed to say what you want to the judge.
One of my friends was held in contempt of court and got all these crazy charges because he angrily slammed his skateboard down on the table and spoke back in a snippy manner… and I mean, really, it was quite strange because it was like this 20 year old young adult was being put through the ringer because the judge felt he did not have the right decorum in the court.
It’s quite merciless and bizarre approach in a free country - it’s what you’d expect from some stuffy colonial kangaroo court or Pomp & Circumstance 17th century butt-sniffer hearing:
Oh, you are going to call OUR JUDGE a NAME?! That’ll be half your monthly income and a weekend in jail, peasant!
SkybreakerEngineer@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Imagine court like a classroom, but with actual consequences attached. There are very basic rules, and you already know them. You don’t speak out of turn, you present your arguments with logic and respect, and you don’t ask an army of wackos to threaten the teacher for handing out homework.
Lovstuhagen@hilariouschaos.com 3 months ago
I do not understand this - he advanced a conspiracy involving a mass shooting. Only in the most indirect way would he really be defaming anyone by implying that the official narrative is a lie. Potentially he has implied that the parents are in on the lie - I don’t see any other way as to how it would be remotely rational to charge him - but it seems a bit bizarre to not allow his right to free speech take precedent since he is commenting on a public event involving public discourse and it is not designed to deprive anyone involved of their civil rights or negatively impact their business.
I am not that familiar with him, but the guy seems unstable, and it would not be beyond the pale to suggest he has a psychological disorder that should be considered in this, right… If you were to tell me that Alex Jones has issues distinguishing truth from fiction and keeping a story straight in his head and was not to be held culpable in a conventional sense for the lies he said, I would not be surprised.
I suppose you’d need some court approved psychologist to make that part of the offiical narrative, but it certainly should be part of the unofficial considerations of everyone involved with this - we are taking a guy with very little credibility who is famous for having an audience of people who want to hear wild, crazy thing, either because they believe in garbage or for entertainment… Having him be seriously sued into the dirt and financially destroyed forever for this is pretty wild for any free country to do.
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 3 months ago
He didn’t imply the parents were lying. He said it directly. Among many other things.
The place for him to make your claims was court. And multiple juries found him guilty. I don’t see how you can claim free speech was breeched when multiple juries found him guilty. In different states. It’s not some one off.
And if you want to know about the cases, you can look them up. They’ll have all the facts presented to the court in them.
Lovstuhagen@hilariouschaos.com 3 months ago
It does not matter much to me in this case what the courts decided because it clearly violates the principle of free speech as I understand it.
To me, these decisions represent the decay of all our rights.