Comment on Why we don't have 128-bit CPUs
wewbull@feddit.uk 1 week ago
We do, depending on how you count it.
There’s two major widths in a processor. The data register width and the address bus width, but even that is not the whole story. If you go back to a processor like the 68000, the classic 16-bit processor, it has:
If you look at a Zen 4 core it has:
So, what do you want to call this processor?
64-bit (integer width), 128-bit (physical data bus width), 256-bit (widest ALU) or 512-bit (widest register width)?
I gave up trying to figure out what the “bitness” of CPUs were around the time the Atari Jaguar came out and people described it as 64 bit because it had 32 bit graphics chip plus a 32 bit sound chip.
It’s been mostly marketing bollocks since forever.
The Jaguar lied with the truth, and I say this as someone who still owns one.
At less than a tenth the size, this is actually a better explanation than the article.
Also I agree that if you absolutely had to put a bit width on the Zen 4, the 2x128 bit data bus would probably be the best single measure.
Even then, at what point do you measure it? DDR interface is likely very much narrower than the interfaces between cache levels. Where does the core end and the memory begin?
Yes you are 100% right, and I did consider level 3 cache as a better measure, because that allows communication between cores without the need to go through RAM, and cache generally has a high hit rate. But this number was surprisingly difficult to find, so I settled on the data bus.
Anyways it would be absolutely fair to call it 256bit by more than one measure. But for sure it isn’t just 64 bit, because it has 512 bit instructions, so the instruction set isn’t limited to 64 bit. Even if someone was stubborn enough to claim the general instruction set is 64 bit, it has the ability to decode and execute 2 simultaneous 64 bit instructions per core, making at least 128 bit by any measure.
So, you’re saying it already goes to ‘11’?
Not to mention most “8-bit” CPUs had a 16 bit address bus.
Yes, because 256 memory locations is a bit limiting.
I’m surprised some marketing genius at the intel/amd hasnt started using the bigger numbers
I expect the engineers are telling the marketing people “No! You can’t do that. You’ll scare everyone that it’s incompatible.”
32bits is compatible with 64bits, why wouldn’t 128 bits be too?
64bit cut out 16bit compatibility. So I’m guessing the fear is that 128 would cut 32.
I see it as the number of possible instructions.
As in, 8 bit 8085 had 2^8^ possible instructions, 32 bit ones had 2^32^ and already had enough possible combinations that we couldn’t come up with enough functions to fill the provided space.
So “instruction encoding length”.
I don’t think that works though. For something like RISC-V, RV64 has a maximum 32-bit instruction encoding. For x86-64 those original 8-bit intructions still exist, and take up a huge part of the encoding space, cutting the number of n-bit instructions to more like 2^(n-7)
RV64 has a maximum 32-bit instruction encoding
I kinda expected that to happen, since there’s already enough to fit all required functions. So yeah, even this is not a good enough criteria for bit rating.
those original 8-bit intructions still exist, and take up a huge part of the encoding space, cutting the number of n-bit instructions to more like 2^(n-7)
err… they are still instructions, right? And they are implemented. I don’t see why you would negate that from the number of instructions.
If the 8088 had used all but one 256 8-bit values as legal instructions, all your new instructions after that point would need to start with that unused value and then you can add a maximum of 256 instructions by using the next byte. End result is 511 instructions can be encoded in 16-bits.
Very well said sir. I think you make your point quite effectively!
LeFantome@programming.dev 1 week ago
I would say that you make a decent argument that the ALU has the strongest claim to the “bitness” of a CPU. In that way, we are already beyond 64 bit.
For me though, what really defines a CPU is the software that runs natively. The Zen4 runs software written for the AMD64 family of processors. That is, it runs 64 bit software. This software will not run on the “32 bit” x86 processors that came before it ( like the K5, K6, and original Athlon ). If AMD released the AMD128 instruction set, it would not run on the Zen4 even though it may technically be enough hardware to do so.
The Motorola 68000 only had a 16 but ALU but was able to run the same 32 bit software that ran in later Motorola processors that were truly 32 bit. Software written for the 68000 was essentially still native on processors sold as late as 2014 ( 35 years after the 68000 was released ). This was not some kid of compatibility mode, these processors were still using the same 32 bit ISA.
The Linux kernel that runs on the Zen4 will also run on 64 bit machines made 20 years ago as they also support the amd64 / x86-64 ISA.
Where the article is correct is that there does not seem to be much push to move on from 64 bit software. The Zen4 supports instructions to perform higher-bit operations but they are optional. Most applications do not use them, including the operating system. For the most part, the Zen4 runs the same software as the Opteron ( released in 2003 ). The same pre-compiled Linux distro will run on both.