Comment on Why do Americans measure everything in cups?
remotelove@lemmy.ca 5 weeks agoWhile neat, I believe your lumber example is misleading in the context of metric vs imperial. Woodworking is extremely imprecise compared to many other types of engineering and using that system for those problems may be ideal.
Deliberately using 1/3rd of 19mm to get 6.33333mm is not as a complex problem as it may look at first glance. 6.333mm IS 1/3rd of 19mm just with more precision. The nature of woodworking requires fairly large tolerances and .3333mm is likely within any tolerance range you would work with. Hell, even +/-3.333mm (10x) is probably within spec in many cases.
Your example conversion from 1/4in to 9.5mm is irrelevant unless you are working a project that is deliberately converting imperial to metric. If a project is designed in metric the measurements and reference points are going to be rounded to metric. The same goes for designs that are in imperial. While it’s possible to design identical pieces in each measuring system, it’s not ideal. Tolerance can compensate for most small differences and you will get two extremely similar pieces.
From your standpoint, everything has been imperial and you make design choices around how imperial works. It just makes sense to you. Design conversions from imperial to metric won’t make any sense and the “natural math” of each system is lost. If you were raised on metric, the same situation would apply I suppose.
You explained the biggest complaint of imperial as a positive: fractions. Pure math is just easier then fractions when working up and down ranges of precision. Divide 10cm by 2? 5mm. 5mm by 4? 1.25mm, etc… Problems like 19mm/3 are irrelevant because of allowable tolerance. Every exact measurement is not abstracted by a 16th or 8th or 32nd or 64th…
Admittedly, I am no woodworker. However, I am curious if someone from the EU could chime in on this problem from their perspective.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I didn’t convert a quarter inch to 9.5mm. First of all a quarter inch is somewhere around 6.5mm. I divided 19mm by 2. Just like I divided 3/4" by two to get 3/8".
I’m talking woodworking here, not carpentry. .3333mm is ~1/64", which is the maximum error I would allow in making a joint. I usually work well within that. Missing by 3.3333mm on a feature specified to be 6.3333mm is an abject failure. That’s an error of over 50%.
PVA wood glue contracts as it dries, so it doesn’t fill gaps well. The looser the fit, the weaker the joint. I aim for a friction fit. Most of the time with glue on the mating surfaces the joint must be tapped together with a mallet.
Your reading comprehension is what I’ve come to expect from Lemmy. I repeat myself for the slow kids at the back: because I often have to divide my work into halves, thirds or quarters and rarely into tenths, fractional inches in powers of two are more convenient in this application.
Remember folks, in metric, 5/2=2.5, 5/3=doesn’t matter because “tolerances.” That’s one of those excuses I was talking about.
Do keep trying to lecture me about something you don’t even slightly understand. It’s adorable.
remotelove@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Chill. We both wrote walls of text and there are going to be misunderstood details. If we want to talk about details, I called out my ignorance of woodworking and why imperial is likely good for what you are talking about.
My overall points, and I’ll summarize this time, is that:
Wood working (carpentry? Whatever.) is not exact.
Dividing 19mm by 3 is a weird example. Your example did a better job of highlighting a math peculiarity, TBH. (My first thought is that the cut was was going to account for any minor errors.)
Fractions suck. You are comfortable with them, but I see them as a useless layer of an outdated measuring system. We made our points, for and against. Cool.
A key point that I didn’t call out specifically is that imperial does not work in high degrees of precision easily without eliminating fractions. It’s possible, and vocalized, but not generally written. 1/1000" as a good example.
While I was awaiting your reply, I also thought of the abuse the imperial system has suffered over the years. A 2x4 is not a 2x4. In reloading (another hobby of mine), .300 actually means .308. .223 could mean .222, .223 or even .224. However, .222 always means .222. I am forced into imperial for safety and consistency reasons. (Don’t even get me started on ‘grains’, whatever the fuck that came from.) For some reason, the metric system is now mixed up in that field as well and it’s a mess.
The word “misleading” was chosen with purpose and doesn’t mean that you writing with malice. It seemed, true or not, that conversions got mixed up in this which would even confuse an MIT graduate.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Woodworking is the trade of building furniture and cabinetry, carpentry is the trade of building structures. A woodworker built your dining room table, a carpenter built your dining room. The two trades have some overlap in skills and knowledge but they are different skill sets. As for exactness…let me put it this way. A lot of woodworkers balk at using pencils to mark their cuts because the width of a 0.5mm mechanical pencil lead is considered too great a margin for error. A single bevel marking knife is used to apply a score mark with a perfectly sharp edge to the wood.
It is typical for metric woodworkers to mill boards to a finished thickness of 19mm. It’s also a common thickness for plywood in metric land. I think it was chosen because it is close to 3/4". Many common woodworking joints such as mortise and tenons, bridle joints, etc. require dividing the board into thirds; a typical mortise for example is a rectangular hole or slot in a board 1/3rd the board’s thickness. So working in metric with 19mm stock, you either have to cope with measuring, marking, and cutting 6.3333mm, or having to “just know” to cut a 7mm mortise with 6mm of wood on either side.
Meanwhile working in US Customary (which is not the same as Imperial) using wood milled to 3/4" stock, a third of 3/4" is 1/4".
19mm/3 isn’t a weird example, I didn’t pull that number out of thin air.
DIFFERENT SCENARIO: Now I’m going to make a half-lap joint which requires cutting the stock in half. Cutting a metric 19mm board in half gets you 9.5mm. Cutting a US Customary 3/4" thick board in half gets you 3/8".
For this application, fractions genuinely don’t suck. There are advantages to using fractions in work like this, namely that you can do integer math on the numerator or demoninator rather than floating point arithmetic. Plus, measuring and marking tools being marked in powers of two rather than ten is more convenient in a field where most of what you’re doing is halving and quartering dimensions.
Sure, precision metalwork is done in thousandths of an inch or even ten-thousandths of an inch, and I personally prefer machining in metric.
Yes it is, for awhile at least. The board is rough sawn out of the log at 2" by 4" and dried at that dimension. Rough sawing doesn’t produce a perfect board, and the board will shrink and warp a little during drying, so the dried board is then further flattened, straightened and squared via a milling process which takes about a quarter inch from each face, resulting in a finished dimension of 1 1/2" by 3 1/2". Lumber is priced by their rough cut dimensions because that’s how much of the tree the sawyer had to use to make that board.
Back in the day it was common for lumber yards to sell construction lumber in a rough cut state at a true 2" by 4", and the carpenter would mill it himself. Then the railroads happened, and lumber was being shipped from the forests of the West coast back east. Railroads charged for cargo by the ton, and lumber mills could save a mint on shipping by milling the boards to finished size before shipping. This saved carpenters the work of milling the boards themselves. They still called the boards “2x4s” because they were still used for the same purpose. An thus the modern commodity retail 2x4 was born.
Similarly, that 3/4" lumber I keep saying I use: I buy that from my local sawyer rough sawn to 1" thick. I then plane it flat and straight, which takes about an eighth of an inch from each face. So I wind up with a finished board 3/4" thick, which as previously discussed is a convenient size for woodworking.