Comment on San Francisco Appoints First Noncitizen to Serve on Elections Commission | KQED
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
I think the discomfort with this situation comes from very foundational conservative thinking. It is a tenent of conservatism that a well ordered and correct society should resemble a pyramid: there should be a few people with wealth, privilege and power (political and otherwise) at the top, supported by a broad base of people with less wealth and less power at the bottom. Including noncitizens in voting upsets this hierarchical model, where outsiders oughtn’t have any political clout at all.
But there’s another element of conservative ideology that is violated by including noncitizens in the electoral process. It is zero-sum thinking that posits any gain for one group results in a loss to another. So handing out rights and and opportunities for political participation will diminish the the rights and opportunities for the rest of us.
As a leftist, I can understand this reasoning and see this it is really a functional way of organizing and dealing with people and situations, as long as you are ok with the consequences of of the hierarchal model. I feel that the advantages of such an approach are far outweighed by the disadvantages. I personally don’t think it’s worth it to accept those consequences, nor do I think zero-sum applies well to issues like rights or matters of common good.
It is a tenent of conservatism that a well ordered and correct society should resemble a pyramid: there should be a few people with wealth, privilege and power (political and otherwise) at the top, supported by a broad base of people with less wealth and less power at the bottom.
Wtf are you talking about? Where did you hear that?
It’s like you guys are unaware of the ideological assumptions that color all of your opinions. Is it shocking to hear that social conservatives believe in hierarchy? Is it surprising to be told that religious conservatives believe there is an overarching authority to which all of humanity, and all of nature is subject? Is it news to you that inequality is seen as inevitable, and this is why liberal ideas about forcing equality on everyone are seen as foolish?
Why then is there any objection to feminism? Why the opposition to DEI programs? Whats wrong with migrant refugees getting US government assistance and why did Ronald Reagan complain about “welfare queens”? What is the problem some people have with young men becoming young women? Is there not some philosophical thread that connects these things as wrong or bad or out of order? It’s because they all seem to violate deeply held assumptions about social order.
If you’ve never heard of Edmund Burke (called by many the father of modern conservatism) you should absolutely read up on him. He definately makes a case for heirarchy. I’m sure you have heard of Jordan Peterson who tries to claim that hierarchy is part of the natural order by famously pointing to lobsters. Peterson is less of a political thinker, but an alt-right hero I suppose, who dresses up conservative christian talking points with academic sounding language.
Anyway I feel like I made my case, debate it or not I don’t care. it seems super funny to me that I am called on to justify a connection between conservatism and hierarchy. It’s like if I said “water is so important to fish” and immediately wintermute is like " what? I literally never heard a fish say anything about water you are making that up you got a cite forr that?"
Is it shocking to hear that social conservatives believe in hierarchy?
Seeing as Im a conservative and dont believe that, yes.
Edmund Burke
And there it is. You read some book and youve confirmation biased yourself.
Hmm yes maybe that’s what happened. My daddy did say book learnin don’t come to no damn good.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 8 months ago
No, it isn’t. I have never heard that from a conservative at all.
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Well either you’re not familiar with the regressive underpinnings of modern social conservatism or you want to deny it for some reason, but either way it doesn’t manke me wrong.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Let’s see your citation for that, otherwise it’s made up garbage.
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
So for those of you reading along at home this is where wintermute tries to hijack the conversation off the rails into some far off-topic tangent by demanding I teach him about the origins of modern conservatism by going all the way back to Edmund Burke, but no matter what I put forth he’s going to probably not read it and say it’s not valid or “just as I thought, made up garbage” and act like he has somehow invalidated my whole explanation of why people don’t want noncitizens on an elections commission.
So then yeah sure maybe I’m wrong about the whole thing. But why then, why is it a problem that a noncitizen is on an election commission? Why would someone be upset with that, or noncitizens voting in local elections? Either because they are against democracy and don’t believe in voting or for some other mysterious reason. No reason is given. Maybe I’m right and it’s because social stratification is seen as the natural order of things based on individual choices, and to give political power to outsiders is seen as unnatural and disruptive social engineering leading to anarchy and chaos. That’s pretty much what Joseph de Maistre said but hey I’m not here to teach history or connect dots for people who just want to argue.