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Comment on San Francisco Appoints First Noncitizen to Serve on Elections Commission | KQED

So for those of you reading along at home this is where wintermute tries to hijack the conversation off the rails into some far off-topic tangent by demanding I teach him about the origins of modern conservatism by going all the way back to Edmund Burke, but no matter what I put forth he’s going to probably not read it and say it’s not valid or “just as I thought, made up garbage” and act like he has somehow invalidated my whole explanation of why people don’t want noncitizens on an elections commission.

So then yeah sure maybe I’m wrong about the whole thing. But why then, why is it a problem that a noncitizen is on an election commission? Why would someone be upset with that, or noncitizens voting in local elections? Either because they are against democracy and don’t believe in voting or for some other mysterious reason. No reason is given. Maybe I’m right and it’s because social stratification is seen as the natural order of things based on individual choices, and to give political power to outsiders is seen as unnatural and disruptive social engineering leading to anarchy and chaos. That’s pretty much what Joseph de Maistre said but hey I’m not here to teach history or connect dots for people who just want to argue.

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Lookin4GoodArgs@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
So, I know where you’re coming from because I’ve read stuff by Edmund Burke and other conservatives. But, unless the conservative you’re talking with is the intellectual type, they probably haven’t. They’ve probably just internalized some version of social conservatism but would also be appalled that you’d accuse them of supporting social stratification even as they support it.

I learned some time ago that this particular argumentative strategy is incredibly pointless. They don’t care that you know the historical and philosophical foundation of their beliefs. For them, that foundation isn’t there for them. They probably don’t know it! Their life experiences inform them more than anything else.

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- Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  They don’t care that you know the historical and philosophical foundation of their beliefs. For them, that foundation isn’t there for them. They probably don’t know it!
  
  Hold on, this came back into my mind and I’m not sure how to interpret it. It seems like, someone who feels that they hold an opinion but can’t really say why they do, can’t point to some principle upon which the opinion rests, nor articulate any deeply held beliefs that would direct their thinking to come to such and such a conclusion- that person (and I am not directing this at any particular individual), that hypothetical person seems like a dumbass. Am I totally misunderstanding what is being said here?
  
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  - Lookin4GoodArgs@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    Am I totally misunderstanding what is being said here?
    
    You are not.
    
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- Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Yeah thanks man. I don’t really expect to convince anybody here who is already been programed into a republican aparatchik. I am mostly posting for anyone reading this stuff who may be swayed by dumb arguments but can be pulled back from the brink by reason.
  
  I’m also using these posts as a way of clarifying and organizing my own thoughts. What do I think about things? Why do I think this or that? It can be useful to have somethi g to react to, and examine my own reactions.
  
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- Blamemeta@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Ive been thinking about this comment.
  
  Its true that I dont know the history or foundation of being pro-guns/pro-2a/etc but I do know the history of disarmed populations.
  
  Theres also the stat that college educated people are more likely to be left wing.
  
  I wonder if conservative idea are more naturally evolving than progressive ideas.
  
  In other words, left wing ideas are instructed but right wing ideas are not.
  
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wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I did say teach me anything. I asked you for a citation which should be easy to do if it’s as common as you claim.

Thanks for admitting you’re full of shit.

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Theprogressivist@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
So you made it up. Got it.

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- wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Pretty much. If you really look at true modern American conservative values. There is a belief anyone can climb as hard as they are willing to work. If anything we believe in a more oval shape where the majority of Americans are in the middle.
  
  Democrats are more about a pyramid shape where you have the rich ruling class, a small middle class and a large group of poor people who depend on the government. It’s why the war on poverty, increased poverty. It’s a feature.
  
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