illegal
Oh, right… that is what has stopped the Phony Starks from building capitalist Utopia in Antartica - it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it’s utterly inhospitable to human civilization at all.
Comment on A City on Mars: Reality kills space settlement dreams
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months agoOne of the things standing in the way of an"civilization" on Antarctica is that it’s illegal to build a civilization on Antarctica. We could absolutely do it, assuming we were willing to fight a war and the resources were worth it
masquenox@lemmy.world 11 months ago
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
That and lack of exploitable resources, meaning a lack of capital. There’s no shortage of capital for the modern space age.
masquenox@lemmy.world 11 months ago
exploitable resource
Yeah… because Antarctica lacks water. And wind energy. And some of the most protein-rich waters on the planet.
Poor, poor Phony Starks… imagine being held back by legislation they could easily bribe into non-existence if they wanted!
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Because Antarctica lacks water
We’re not exactly hurting for water
And some of the most protein-rich waters on the planet.
This doesn’t require building a civilization of any sort
ourob@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
Doesn’t the outer space treaty place similar restrictions on mars?
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
AFAIK it only prevents weaponization of space.
ourob@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
It also prohibits countries from claiming sovereignty, and it actually used the Antarctic treaty for inspiration.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
Which is not to say that it’s exactly the same situation as Antarctica, but the treaties are more similar than you might assume.
FaceDeer@kbin.social 11 months ago
It prohibits countries from claiming sovereignty over territory beyond Earth, but the colonies themselves can still be sovereign. Assuming the treaty continues as it is it just means that countries won't be able to draw borders around vast lifeless regions on Mars or the Moon and claim jurisdiction over them, they'll still be able to build cities there and the cities will be theirs to control.
Treaties like these lapse or get amended over time as the realities of life make them obsolete, though. I expect that once there are cities on Mars there'll be borders as well.
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Yeah it’s just that the sheer scale of planetary colonization kind of makes this a problem for the year 4,000 or so.
lloram239@feddit.de 11 months ago
Every exploration into hostile environments heavily relies on goods and services imported from the rest of Earth. Biosphere 2 is as far as I know still the only time we ever tried to actually build a completely independent ecological system, but that was 30 years ago, in a non-hostile environment, only run for a short amount of time, still had tons of problems and would still be missing a lot of stuff to be truly self sustaining for long time periods (e.g. no industrial facilities).
guitarsarereal@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
I mean, Biosphere 2 failed because it was started by a cult that mismanaged the shit out of it, then Steve Bannon took over and outright killed the company. A lot of the really crazy shit that happened was a result of corporate power struggles. The first Biosphere experiment lasted two years and is considered overall a success, probably because Steve Bannon wasn’t there.
Even the claims of stir craziness were kind of overblown. They got evaluated, everything they experienced was consistent with everything that was known about long-term isolated group environments. They’re a rough experience.
It was a fine enough experiment in the early 90’s, but there are incorrect assumptions about how it would apply to space travel. For one, the Biosphere project is considered a “failure” because they set themselves the goal of creating a completely self-contained bubble that needed no outside inputs, and yet at various points systems in the sphere needed repair and replacement, which is completely normal and absolutely what would happen in space. No space company worth anything would let a mining colony collapse because a carbon scrubber broke and “hAhA yOu NeEd oUtSiDe InPutS tO kEeP lIviNG JuSt LiKe tErReStRiAl cOloNieS.” No, they’d ship in a new scrubber and keep the line moving.
scarabic@lemmy.world 11 months ago
They would ship in a new scrubbed but could they? We have to assume that a colony might need to self subsist for long periods, at least as long as Biosphere 2 was running, because of the practical considerations in shipping replacement parts to Mars.
guitarsarereal@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
Bringing tons of spare parts can extend the length of time between required visits, also, again, I’m considering that the only way the cost of these colonies can possibly ever be justified is as part of setting up a space-based economy/space-based supply chain. That means regular round trip visits to bring at least some of those resources back to Earth where the value can be realized. Breakdowns occur, shit happens, a ship might crash/have a catastrophic systems failure/etc on the way, creating periods where they can’t get fresh supplies and they have to get creative. I get it.
My main point though is that the Biosphere experiments were held to an extremely high standard of isolation because the point was to explore what would happen in a completely enclosed system. That’s useful for exploring how far you can take closed systems, but at the end of the day, again, no real space based activity would or could be held to the same standard of isolation. They were called frauds because someone brought some plastic bags into the enclosure (sure, it contaminates the experiment, also, space colonies won’t exactly be experiments in the same way Biosphere 2 was)
scarabic@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Biosphere 2 is a great story and I wish there were more follow ups. They tried to set up favorable initial conditions and then seal the hatch. They found that the environment inside shifted and became inhospitable. The crops they planned on didn’t all sustain. Then they called it all off.
What if they had allowed the biosphere to keep shifting until it found its equilibrium point, and then set about finding advantages in that? Crops that would sustain in that?
An iterative process could build on mistakes and learnings. A one-shot, naive, all-or-nothing attempt where your starting conditions have to be just right… no wonder that it failed, but where was the next iteration? Why give it all up instead of tuning? I know it’s about money, but I wish someone with money cared enough to keep this thread going.
PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 11 months ago
That’s not why it failed:
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
These would be the problems that are currently being worked on prior to manned Mars (and to a lesser extent, lunar, missions).
We absolutely will not be shipping containers of food to Mars. That’s absurd.
WHYAREWEALLCAPS@kbin.social 11 months ago
We absolutely will be. You have no concept of the amount of energy and resources needed to feed a single human being on Earth for one meal, let alone a whole colony on another world without a breathable atmosphere and possibly toxic dirt for an indeterminate time. Farming under the best of conditions is extremely energy consuming, then there's the need to either import hardware from Earth that is specially made for Mars or go old fashion and do a lot of it by hand. There is no where else in the solar system where you can just throw seeds at the ground in large enough quantities and feed whole cities. I do homesteading, my dad tried to be totally self sufficient foodwise when I was a teen. Guess what? Turns out that's really, really hard to do. And that's under the ideal conditions of Earth.
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Lol no wonder you know so little about this
SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 months ago
But you didn’t have NASA level technology. There is a lot you can do to increase food production using less space if you’re willing to pay the upfront and energy costs.
PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 11 months ago
I disagree, I believe we would ship containers of food to Mars in the early days. Just like we do for mcmurdo in Antarctica.
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
It’s doubtful we’d ship past the initial landing and support phases, which was my point. It’s likely we’d send several ships out for any permanent presence, but 18 months is just too long and too much investment between trips.
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 months ago
This is one of those things that will need baby steps.
— using local water and dirt are probably a minimum for any non-trivial stay
— yes we really need to be able to grow our own food, at least if we want to scale up from a temporary base for a handful to something larger or more permanent. Again, this is one of the things we probably need to go there to find out: is it possible to grow a lot of our own food?