Please stop advocating for giving rich people money and just let poor people have some security. Seriously, we don't have to stick to a strict interpretation of UBI. We can make it work anyway we want.
Comment on A Universal Basic Income Is Being Considered by Canada's Government
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
guarantee access to a livable income
Is this another one of those Basic Income programs that are means tested? Not really UBI if that is the case.
Bonehead@kbin.social 11 months ago
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
No. I’m not trying to shit on welfare programs here as they are certainly better than nothing, but the universality is the entire reason basic income is something I am excited about and where I believe almost all of its social benefits come from. There are many reasons for this, but as someone who has been on various forms of means tested public assistance myself, my personal experience with the stigma, the stress and unapproachability of continually needing to navigate an arcane and dysfunctional bureacracy, and the paranoia about ending up worse off if I earn too much money, make it an issue I have a personal connection to and have strong feelings about.
There is certainly a place for debating whether a UBI or an expansive welfare program would be better, but I’m not trying to have that debate here. I am just asking for honest clarity of terms so that the public discourse won’t be hopelessly confused as to which is which. Universal means Universal.
Bonehead@kbin.social 11 months ago
If you actually paid attention to any of the pilot projects that have already taken place, you'd know that the means test isn't meant to keep people out of the program. It's just meant to ensure the people in the program actually need it. This can be easily determined by looking at tax returns. Much of the strangely detested bureaucracy is necessary to run a large government program. That's just exactly what governments are and will always be. That doesn't mean that it'll be on top of what exists today, and it doesn't mean it'll cost more than it does today. It will much much cost less, because both EI and welfare are covered by this program.
Again, it can work any way we want it to. If we want a simple means test to ensure people are over 17 and genuinely have no income or not enough income as evident by the reported taxes by your employer and your tax returns, then we can have that system. It doesn't need to be complicated. It doesn't need to be "universal", in that its just blindly given to every single Canadian regardless of needs. It can be "universal", in that it's available to every single Canadian that needs it. We can change the definition of "universal" to suit our needs. We can help people in need without having to worry about the rich getting a piece. We can make it all work...if we really wanted to.
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
Perhaps you can make it work, and maybe you are right in thinking that it is the best course of action. But please don’t co-opt the terminology used by people advocating for a program that is really very different both ideologically and practically. This is not an honest way to promote what you want to do. When I say UBI, I want people to understand what I am talking about, and what I am talking about is payments to every person regardless of their income. That is what people saying UBI have meant for a long time, and acknowledging this is just basic respect.
wombatula@lemm.ee 11 months ago
How are they advocating for giving rich people money exactly?
Bonehead@kbin.social 11 months ago
By complaining that this will be means tested and therefore not actually UBI.
wombatula@lemm.ee 11 months ago
But that is literally the definition of UBI, that’s what the Universal part is, if there is means testing it’s just welfare, and that would significantly raise the cost and lessen the impact.
Oversight costs money, every dollar that’s being spent on bureaucracy and every layer of bureaucracy that gets between the people and the income costs money and prevents people that need it from accessing it. That’s the point of UBI, and some “rich people” getting money is better than “poor people” or people on the edge of being poor being refused or given a lesser amount because we are paying for an entire agency to decide who gets it. That’s the biggest failure of welfare, have you ever tried to access EI? It’s a total clusterfuck and mostly serves to stop people that actually need it from accessing it in a timely fashion. The one time I tried to access EI, I literally got evicted and ended up on the streets, found a new job, and had moved into my new house before they ever gave me a penny… because of means testing.
I feel like you have a very weird take on this if your first thought is that they are “advocating for giving rich people money” when they are just pointing out basic facts.
BrikoX@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
Source: www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/…/first-reading
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
After reading this document, I feel that it is still ambiguous. However 88 billion (the cost estimate in the OP article) divided by the population of canada is 2200, which I think wouldn’t be considered a livable annual income, so I think what they’re talking about must have some kind of means testing.
BrikoX@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
If you remove kids under 17 it gets closed to 3000, but you might be right. It seems the idea is to make it a specific amount based on region.