Comment on The Voice debate is yet another ugly chapter in Australia's history
Ilandar@aussie.zone 11 months agoVoting Yes accomplishes the recognition of Indigenous Australians in the constitution, which is symbolically important as they are our first Australians and their culture is an important part of our history as a nation.
Voting Yes also accomplishes the implementation of a policy advisory committee, that may or may not lead to better designed and more efficient Indigenous policy making, potentially saving taxpayers a lot of money and leading to better health/education/employment/etc outcomes for Indigenous Australians. Because the constitutional amendment we are voting on does not include specific details about the formation and targets of the advisory committee, it could theoretically be as flexible as is needed at any given time. For example, in a perfect world where all Indigenous disadvantage has been eliminated, the advisory body could instead become an important figurehead for the celebration of Indigenous culture within Australia.
Voting Yes in this referendum also ensures that there will finally be an Indigenous advisory committee that is immune to the total disbandment we have seen from previous hostile governments throughout Australia’s history. This is something that has happened on multiple occasions and it’s a key reason why Australia has struggled to make progress with regards to the many social issues stemming from colonisation. If you keep tearing up the plan completely every few years, it is very difficult to achieve anything long-term.
Ultimately, voting Yes guarantees important symbolic recognition. Voting No does not. That is the fundamental difference in the immediate outcome of this referendum, based on what we are voting for.
stifle867@programming.dev 11 months ago
Thank you for replying so thoughtfully. This has explained it better to me than anyone else has (from both sides).
I think part of the communication problem is how wishy-washy the vote is. Without the historical context the importance of the vote gets completely missed. I’ve heard so many people wave their hands and say “representation”, “constitution”, etc., but no one is able to define anything. Your comment makes it clear to me that it’s not so much about the affirmative action, but explicitly avoiding the failures of the past.
Side note: it’s crazy to think we don’t even have a constitutional freedom of speech
Ilandar@aussie.zone 11 months ago
You’re welcome. I have been reflecting on the campaign recently and I believe the point about consitutional recognition probably hasn’t been made as clearly as it should have been. The debate has become really bogged down in theoretical outcomes of the Voice advisory body, giving rise to a lot of fearmongering and misinformation, but regardless of how that turns out there is still the symbolic recognition component which is something that has decades of widespread support from Indigenous Australians and both sides of politics. Like you, I was also sceptical of what a Yes vote would achieve early on, but the more I have learned about the history of this entire process the more convinced I have become that it is the only rational choice I can make at this referendum.
stifle867@programming.dev 11 months ago
Couldn’t agree more. In general, I think left leaning people make the mistake of overly debating the points that right leaning people make and this creates a lot of confusion and muddies the waters to the detriment of the left leaning. I’ll explain why. These are generalities and cut both ways too.
A lot of arguments aren’t made in good faith. Trying to rationally and logically explain/debate something when the other side isn’t making decisions rationally or logically usually doesn’t work. (explaining why fear mongering isn’t valid)
Debating a bad idea directs too much focus towards that idea and makes it harder for good ideas to be heard. This leads people to missing the point or not seeing the bigger picture. (arguing that there are already indigenous people in parliament)
Recognising that some ideas are based on emotional opinions can lead to trying to directly counter that in an emotionally adversarial way. (if you don’t support me you’re racist!)
I think making these mistakes can too easily turn discussions into identity clashes and further entrenches pre held ideas. Obviously you should respond to concerns and as long as the discussion stays civilised there’s no problem. Unfortunately not many people are able to discuss different ideas without taking it personally.
I’m grateful to everyone here that has done their best to express their opinions without resorting to personal comments.
Ilandar@aussie.zone 11 months ago
In terms of general discourse I’d say that’s certainly true. The official Yes campaign has actually done a really good job avoiding those pitfalls, though. Everyone involved has showed an insane level of restraint (perhaps too much at times) given the absolute barrage of lies and blatantly bad faith misdirection they have been exposed to for months.
And I will add that I don’t see this as left versus right in the way that other social policy debates are. Constitutional recognition for Indigenous Australians has historically had conservative support and in this referendum you can find many examples of right leaning people who support the Yes campaign. Chris Kenny on Sky News has been using his program to campaign for a Yes vote for months, as an example. Part of the reason it has taken so long to get a referendum on this is because great efforts were taken to establish a model that would receive bipartisan support.
In the modern era, I think politics is often less about left versus right and more about education versus misinformation. And that has certainly been the story of this referendum.
Nath@aussie.zone 11 months ago
Freedom of speech the way our American friends go on about it is implied in our constitution as general freedom. We don’t explicitly have a clause that says you have a right to walk along the beach in PJs or jeans (or even both!). Yet, this activity is perfectly legal.
For some reason, they’ve gone and made a constitutional amendment specifically for this freedom. I’m sure they had a good reason for that. That doesn’t mean we don’t also have this freedom.
stifle867@programming.dev 11 months ago
It is a lot different actually having it explicitly in the constitution for all the same reasons you would argue for a yes vote in the upcoming referendum. You only have to look back a couple of years to find a time where your example wasn’t legal due to lockdowns.
Nath@aussie.zone 11 months ago
I don’t live in a part of Australia that had those restrictions on movement. We never had lockdowns in Western Australia like they experienced in the Eastern States.
But even then, the restrictions those places had were temporary in response to a state of emergency and not a change in our wider freedoms.