Comment on Microsoft Defender Flags Tor Browser as a Trojan and Removes it from the System - Deform
nous@programming.dev 8 months agoThis is a bad response to this news. There are many reasons why you might want to run tor on Windows and gatekeeping people out of tor because they are not on a chosen OS is a terribly way to get more people into thinking about privacy and security practices. Yes if you have the highest threat model you might want to avoid Windows as well, but not everyone needs absolute privacy/security for what they do. But why should you not have access to a tool that can help improve things even if you are not able to switch everything to a more private/secure alternative?
Really you should want everyone and anyone to run on tor, even if they don’t need it, even if they are on windows. The more people using it the more secure it is for those that do require it.
lckdscl@whiskers.bim.boats 8 months ago
Yeah I agree. To be clear, if you take the reverse of my statement, i.e. if you’re on Windows, you shouldn’t use Tor, then I would be gatekeeping.
But I’m not implying that, but rather the reverse. I’m saying if you have use Tor for whatever reasons to bypass censorship, do illegal stuff and avoid being tracked, you should at least be aware that at the kernel level, how you’re accessing the internet has already been compromised by Microsoft, and consider alternatives OSes
Of course I’d still want people running Windows to be able to use Tor, and also I’d say leaving Windows isn’t something you would only do at the “highest threat model”.
Privacy will almost always be a trade-off with convenience, I’m pushing the awareness to get people to act, should they choose to. That’s all.
nous@programming.dev 8 months ago
You might not have intended to imply that, but your original words can be taken in many different ways. Such as a dismissive well this news does not matter because you should not be using TOR if you are on windows. You did not say that exactly, but either interpenetration needs some reading between the lines as you did not really say all that much. So it could be taken that way just as much as the way you actually intended. And on the internet if things can be interpreted multiple ways they will be.
TheYear2525@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Taking “If P then not Q” as equivalent to “If not Q then not P” is just straight up broken thinking. Basic logic should be treated as an expected prerequisite to meaningful conversation.
lckdscl@whiskers.bim.boats 8 months ago
I know you meant well, but I don’t think their interpretation implied any logical fallacy. I used a conditional statement but my statement was prescriptive, not descriptive.
The difference between “I should” and “I have to/must” is a modal one. I implied “if I have to X then I shouldn’t Y”. They swapped X and Y around to get “If I have to Y then I shouldn’t X”, which is just a plain misinterpretation. The use of what is and what ought implies a recommendation or opinion, not mutual exclusivity. For that, I would have to use the same modality “If I have to X then I must not do Y”.
It’s like mixing up “If I have an infectious disease, I shouldn’t go outside” vs. “If I have to go outside, I shouldn’t have an infectious disease”. To me, they have a subtle difference. There is compromise and decision-making involved.
I’ll spell it out anyway because why not. I can’t be bothered to edit my original comment. While it’s sensational-sounding, anyone who take issue with what I said don’t take surveillance properly so I can’t help them, while those that misinterpreted me like nous did can find out for themselves here.
spoiler
If I have to use Windows, then I can still use Tor understanding and accepting that the OS at the kernel level is a black box that logs and tracks whatever it wants. I can compromise because I might just want to read a blocked news site or Wikipedia. Likewise, if I’m stuck somewhere and I have to use Windows to use Tor then it is a compromise. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t use Tor. I’m responsible for my bad opsec should anything bad come my way. versus If I have to use Tor, then something is wrong with the way I’m able to access and/or spread information (I handle sensitive or illegal topics, that can harm me or others if found out), and I can’t do it privately because there is surveillance involved. At the kernel level windows is a blackbox that mishandle my data and has the ability to observe everything I do. Therefore I ought to not use Windows.
sunbunman@lemm.ee 8 months ago
I’m not saying you’re wrong (frankly, I’m on your side), but the majority of the general population, i.e. windows users, would take it as such. This is more to do with the failure of the various education systems more so than anything else.
FabledAepitaph@lemmy.world 8 months ago
If you have to bust out explanations from IQ test questions to explain yourself, then you’ve failed to communicate with 98% of whoever reads your comment. You can’t expect people to put in more than a modicum of effort to understand your message.
ripcord@kbin.social 8 months ago
Oh my God, nerds, stop arguing about absolutely nothing other than who was rught