Comment on Father sues Google, claiming Gemini chatbot drove son into fatal delusion
sudoer777@lemmy.ml 2 days agothe priest rationalizes two completely different answers based on the way the question is posed. It’s just an example to show how two contradictory answers can seem rational to the same person because of the language used.
They aren’t contradictory though. Basically what they are saying is just praying > praying + smoking > just smoking.
BranBucket@lemmy.world 2 days ago
But in both cases, the person is asking to do the same thing. The order of the words in the sentence doesn’t change the end result, we always wind up with someone smoking and praying simultaneously, which may or may not be against God’s will.
Strip away the justifications and simplify the word choices and you get this:
Given that, can you say if it is right or wrong to smoke and pray simultaneously?
And again, this is just a hypothetical scenario. In the broader context of life, religion, and tobacco use, it’ll never be this simple, but it works for an example.
Now, someone might point out that by simplifying the wording, I’ve changed the meaning of the original statement to make it fit my argument, and that now it means something else. But that’s essentially my original point, phrasing and word choices can shape our reasoning, though pricesses, and how we interpret meaning in ways we aren’t immediately aware of, leading us to different conclusions or even delusional thinking in some cases.
sudoer777@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Not really. They’re not just asking if they should pray and smoke simultaneously if you put them in contexts where it actually makes sense to ask those questions.
First, “pray” can mean different things, such as (1) a deep focused session, or (2) a lighter more casual session, both of which are standard definitions of the word. Since this request emphasizes prayer as the main action, (1) is most likely here. For a focused session, smoking is a distraction and not a good idea. The definition of “may” here is also subjective and not necessarily absolute, some people may consider it disrespectful, while others may still say that prayer at all is better than no prayer regardless of side actions, but it’s better to not smoke.
In this sentence, definition (2) of prayer seems more likely since the main focus of the request is smoking. Which to some people this may still be considered disrespectful like in the first request, but others are supportive of more casual prayer and smoking during casual prayer isn’t a problem like in focused prayer, and the idea that prayer is better than no prayer and “may” isn’t absolute still applies.
Not if you’re trying to prove that they’re contradictory, since the context is what actually makes the words mean something. If you take away the context, then it’s nothing more than shapes on a screen.
I agree with that
BranBucket@lemmy.world 2 days ago
We’re getting very forest for the trees here.
It’s a thought experiment, a controlled imaginary environment used to illustrate a point. It’s supposed to be isolated from outside contex to make that point clearer. It’s purely hypotheical and comes self contained with all the context it needs. We’re testing one metaphorical variable, so that our results aren’t muddled. You just went and added another half dozen for the sake of argument…
Prayer is prayer in this context. No other meaning. There are no types of prayer in this particular sect, focus is irrelevant. Is it against God’s will to smoke while you pray? Can you answer that question, yes or no, based off the priest’s answers?
The fact that the priest, parishioner, and the typical intended audience for this particular hypothetical don’t do the kind of analysis you’ve worked up here is really a large part of what this particular thought experiment is trying to illuminate, don’t you think?
Good. =)
sudoer777@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
Isolating it from context doesn’t make the point clearer though, it removes the point entirely. Those sentences mean absolutely nothing if you strip all context from them.
If you did want to make them contradictory, you could put them in the context of math with some English-like properties, where “pray” is a constant and “may” requests a boolean answer, in which case that claim would be true. But we are talking about “spoken” English language, not mathematics, so this application isn’t relevant.
There still has to be a clear context to assign meaning to “prayer” and the complexities of English grammar (both of which are subjective). Otherwise it just becomes like the trolley problem.
Actually they do do this kind of analysis but they don’t realize it. When they read the sentence, every bit of meaning they interpret from it is built off of decades of associating words, syntax, and verbal cues with meanings, all of which come from their own experiences dependent on their environment. Which means that different words and phrases have different meanings for different people, and while there are “standards” that most people speaking that language accept, even then there are still often significant differences among people following those standards and there is no objective meaning. Stripping that context would be similar to stopping those experiences away, or in other words asking the question to a baby.