Comment on Trigger warning - This Epstein stuff is making me sick...
BranBucket@lemmy.world 3 days agoThey believe they’re financially comfortable and not in any danger as long as they only make sad noises and wring their hands about “the issues we face” and “problems that need to be fixed”. They still rely on being a cog in the system to eat, so they can’t really bring themselves to bite the hand just yet.
They won’t get angry until they realize it’s their retirement, lives, and children at risk. Even then, they’ll rationalize a lack of action due to “powerlessness”, conveniently forgetting that the first step is organization, not leaping onto action as an individual and getting steamrolled.
orioler25@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Wasn’t a genuine question, more of an expression of exacerbation. However, I think this is a stance that demonstrates a less actionable understanding of liberals.
It’s true that many have a material interset in the maintenance of capitalist systems – and all the violence that is necessary for them to exist whether they acknowledge that openly or not – but you’re framing it moralistically as though these people also choose to both be dependent on that system, and be neglected the knowledge and skills necessary to recognize necessary action. I do understand the pessimism deeply, as my experience has taught me that many do choose to remain in ignorance when the opportunity is given; for a number of reasons, but entitled petulance is certainly a factor. If you listen to workers though, you’ll notice they do understand that the issue is systemic and not effectively met by individual action. As you said, recognizing what that systemic failure is, who it serves and why, and how to organize in opposition to it are skills that require years of knowledge building to develop. Even further, fascist disinformation campaigns are made more effective by this ignorance when they validate internalized setter-colonial values which these people obviously don’t know to be fascistic in the first place. There’s nothing convenient about being purposefully disempowered, and no shame in the inability to sacrifice the wellbeing of your dependents to participate in action (or “bite the hand”) if you’ve never been taught about organization.
When you say this, I can’t help but wonder if you’ve seen firsthand the immense levels of anxiety in working-class, blue-collar families as the failures of this system become undeniable and they are indeed unable to understand exactly what to do about it. They don’t need the system to completely fall apart to become motivated, many have felt insecure their entire lives and suffered the everpresent threat of homelessness or disability inflicted on them and their families. Those same people have been receptive to systemic change for a long time, and you’re right, they are victims of a system that holds their security hostage behind compliance. Maybe if you’ve only lived in an affluent suburb, it’s easier to entertain the idea that people only ever choose inaction, but I’m afraid this thinking is more limiting than the catharsis is worth. I’ve found it better to meet them with empathy and focus on language building or talking points that emphasize the insecurity of this system that they intuitively know to be true, and educate them on different risk levels of action. There isn’t a threshold where people like that will suddenly be receptive to systemic change, they’ve wanted it their whole lives and we’re seeing the consequences of their desire in the success of populist fascist rhetoric in this moment.
BranBucket@lemmy.world 3 days ago
I’m part of one of those families. I’ve lived among them my whole life. It’s not a moral judgement, just an observation on human behavior. And I was talking about those in the suburbs more than my own neighborhood.
orioler25@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Then you do get it to a degree, hopefully. This is moralistic though, the assertion that this reflects some natural human behaviour is as well. Suburbs are also not only home to the affluent, suburban sprawl has made them affordable and effective sites of working-poor isolation and precarity exactly because they have hindered the construction of high-density housing and are so difficult to survive in without a reliable flow of cash. If you’ve lived in communities of factory workers who, while tenuously secure, remember the 2008 Recession sharply, then you know what I mean when I say that there are liberals who understand that foundational systemic change is needed but do not have the time or energy to learn what that means in like terms to what socialist and anarchist theorists or activists use.
It really is unsatisfying to lose the option of discarding people in catharsis, but that is necessary to foster empowerment of workers who only have the tools they’ve been given.
BranBucket@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Look, so, I know I came across as dismissive in my first reply, but you’re also coming across as really condescending. Not sure if you’re aware, but if your intent is to reach out with empathy and understanding, you might want to consider that.
I get it. I’ve been reaching out to people for more than 30 years and watching them consistently go against their best interests for about the same amount of time. A little cynicism is natural.
I’m sure in a face to face we’d probably agree on most things, but this conversation doesn’t feel productive. Thanks for taking the time to reply and good luck out there.