fizzle@quokk.au 4 days ago
The fuck?
I don’t understand all of the connotations of the phrase, (I doubt queensland parliamentarians do either). I do understand palestinians ancestral land is bordered by the river and the sea.
That said, this sounds very much like making wrong think a crime. Nobody is allowed to acknowledge that Israel used to be Palestine because that would upset the Israelis.
In Australia in the last decade there has been a movement towards recognising first australians as the traditional owners of the land on which we live and work. It’s often mentioned in podcasts, emails, public announcements et cetera. More and more signage has both European and Aboriginal place names.
The term “truth telling” has emerged to describe the practice of acknowledging historical facts rather than pretending they didn’t happen.
If a group of indigenous Australians chanted “from the desert to the sea”, would that be hate speech ?
Nobody is allowed to acknowledge that Israel used to be Palestine because that would upset the Israelis.
It never existed as a state. It was “The British Mandate of Palestine”.
Am not saying it shouldn’t exist as a state in future, just being pregnant with the history.
Jordan is effectively a Palestinian state.
> First documented in the late Bronze Age, about 3200 years ago, the name Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη; Arabic: , Filastin), is the conventional name used between 450 BC and 1948 AD to describe a geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and various adjoining lands. This work explores the evolution of the concept, histories, identity, languages and cultures of Palestine from the Late Bronze Age to the modern era. Moreover, Palestine history is often taught in the West as a history of a land, not as Palestinian history or a history of a people. This book challenges colonial approach to Palestine and the pernicious myth of a land without a people (Masalha 1992, 1997) and argues for reading the history of Palestine with the eyes of the indigenous people of Palestine. The Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine; their local roots are deeply embedded in the soil of Palestine and their autochthonous identity and historical heritage long preceded the emergence of a local Palestinian nascent national movement in the late Ottoman period and the advent of Zionist settler-colonialism before the First World War.
> The administrative province of Roman Palestine During Roman rule in Palestine, and more specifically between 135 AD and 390 AD, Palestine became one of the Provincias of the empire. This is also a period from which many written records were preserved in a variety of languages – Latin, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew –and also covered in the annals and texts of the new religion of Christianity. By this time the name ‘Palestine’ was more than a millennium old and had substantial currency. During the Roman period the official/administrative name of ‘Palestine’ was consolidated and popularised in Latin and Greek, which were the two lingua francas of the Roman Empire and Eastern Mediterranean. These two languages affected trade, administration, education, religion, architecture, diplomacy, coinage and key place names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean.
between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River
Careful there, mate…
No, I’m not going to apologize for supporting emancipation
It wasn’t a self-governing state was my point.
Again, wrong. Maybe do so reading.
Unless you mean state as in nationalism, wasn’t a thing until the 19th century. Where Palestine was self-governing under the ottoman empire until British occupation began.
Conventional wisdoms are often articulated by powerful elites; they are not always based on facts. The conventional wisdom is that Palestine never in its history experienced self-government, political or cultural autonomy, not to mention practical sovereignty and actual statehood. Nothing is further from the truth. As we shall amply demonstrate in this work, over three millennia from the late Bronze Age and until the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948, Palestine enjoyed a great deal of social, political and economic autonomy and also experienced statehood through six distinct, though not mutually exclusive, ways – ways which had a profound impact on the evolution of the ideas of Palestine across the millennia: • Autonomous economic and monetary systems and the issuing of Palestinian currency: the institution of independent monetary policies and the minting of distinct Palestinian currency were evident in the cases of the coinage of Philistia or Philisto-Arabian in the 6th‒4th centuries BC (discussed in chapter one) and the minting of Arab currency ‘in Filastin’ throughout early Islam (discussed in chapter six). • Imperial patron‒protégé systems: the construction of patron‒client systems and the rise of local and autonomous regional and urban elites in Palestine, as was in the case of the ‘urban notables’ of Ottoman Palestine. But ultimately, as we shall see in chapter eight, these Ottoman urban elites in Palestine were rule-takers not rule-makers and rule-breakers. • Administrative, provincial and military autonomy: this is evident throughout the Roman and Byzantine periods in what became widely known as Provincia Palaestina or the Dux Palaestinae, the ‘military commander of Palestine’ (discussed in chapter four), Mutawalli Harb Filastin (“ ”, Military Governor of Palestine) (discussed in chapter six) and in late Ottoman period Palestine with the creation of the autonomous administrative Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem as the key province of Palestine (discussed in chapter nine). • Palestinian client states: the emergence and creation of several Palestinian client states, partly based on the same patron‒client relationships. Although the types of client states in Palestine and the degree of their subordination to imperial or powerful states varied significantly, the kings of Philistia throughout much of the Iron Age, the client King Herod the Great under the Romans in the 1st century AD (discussed in chapter four), the Ghassanid tribal Arab federate kings (supreme phylarchs) of Palaestina Secunda, Palaestina Prima and Palaestina Tertia in the 6th and early 7th centuries (discussed in chapter five) and to a lesser extent the autonomous regime of Ahmad Pasha al-Jazzar in the 18th century were cases in point. • Palestinian practical sovereignty and statehood: this was achieved by Daher al-‘Umar following his successful rebellion against Ottoman rule in the middle of the 18th century (discussed in chapter eight). • Ecclesiastical independence and autocephaly: this was achieved by the Church of Aelia Capitolina and Provincia Palaestina from the mid-5th century following the Council of Chalcedon (discussed in chapter four).
The whole debate is dumb. There was people living in the land then foreigners came to force a state on those people and ethenically cleansing them.
This dumb debate try to make the zionist colonialism a matter of opinion when it is not
and nobody is allowed to acknowledge that Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem used to be the kingdoms of Israel and Judah because that would upset the lemmings
No, you’re allowed to say that. I’m also allowed to say that I’m pro babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar did nothing wrong.
AudaciousArmadillo@piefed.blahaj.zone 4 days ago
If your slogan implies genocide, as your example also does, yes it is hate speech. You cannot undo colonization by disposing the occupiers. Any nation is occupying some native land in one form or another.
fizzle@quokk.au 4 days ago
You’re going to have to elaborate on how “from the desert to the sea” implies genocide.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 3 days ago
It means there won’t be any Israelis left between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Hamas’s stated purpose for existing is to vanquish not only the state of Israel, but all Israelis and more broadly all Jews. That’s overtly genocidal.
And before you call me a zionist, I don’t support the Israeli government. What it’s doing to Palestinians is atrocious. But I’m capable of discerning between Israelis and the the Israeli government, just like I’m capable of discerning between Palestinians and Hamas.
Israelis and Palestinians alike deserve peace, justice, security, autonomy, and self-determinism, just like every other human being in the world deserves these things.
The Israeli government and Hamas, on the other hand, are both genocidal organizations and need to be replaced with something more civilized.
Aussieiuszko@aussie.zone 3 days ago
No it doesn’t. It means the land won’t be owned by Israel.
fizzle@quokk.au 3 days ago
The history of harassment, Palestine, and israel is largely irrelevant.
If a law prescribes (proscribes?) specific phrases regadless of intent and context, they should be chosen very, very carefully.
Im not an expert, but i think other states require a context like “intended to incite hatred”.
By prescribing this particular phrase, even if you are correct, it allows harassment to portray Palestine as ignored and persecuted - the very intention of terrorism.
mrdown@lemmy.world 1 day ago
This is just a myth
decolonizepalestine.com/…/from-the-river-to-the-s…
Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
It is an emancipatory slogan that calls for an end to apartheid and for equal rights.
AudaciousArmadillo@piefed.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
If you want to say “Free Palestine”, you could say “Free Palestine”. “From the river to the sea” is also used by Israel and I bet I don’t have to convince you as hard that they aren’t talking about peaceful co-existance.
Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
See here
Yeah, it’s not a surprise that ethnosupremacist fascists dedicated to ethnic cleansing use their twisted version as a call for even more ethnic cleansing.