Comment on YSK that everything the New York Times about Donald Trump actually happened
TrickDacy@lemmy.world 2 weeks agoI wasn’t very clear about the cooperation part. What I mean wasn’t that you have to be rational to cooperate. What I’m saying is that you have to be rational to plan out things that take dozens or hundreds of years and effectively utilize the cooperation of thousands of individuals who are all looking to solve the same problem.
You are using modern societal issues like inequality as evidence that we aren’t rational, but I dispute that strongly. Those problems used to be much, much worse, literally because the ruling class used a rational but evil plan to take care of themselves. Because of rational working class fighting back in a very organized and rational manner at a few different points in history, we made progress against them. We don’t have a 40 hour work week or OSHA in America because a bunch of emotional and angry public kept trying random things without a thought. We have those things from planning and hard work. Both are examples of being entirely rational.
ameancow@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I think we’re saying the same thing but coming to different conclusions.
I see our successes as a species as examples of trial and error and the efforts of the minority in manipulating the masses and see this as an example of why we will never rise above the same problems coming up over and over again, because our minds are inherently flawed and primitive.
You are seeing this as an example of how progressive politics actually succeeds. And I don’t argue that either, but I’m saying we’re going to having these same fights in 200 years, while our species is mostly huddled in the alleys and shadows of those titanic beings with upgraded minds and thinking capacity, if we even get far enough to build our descendant species.
I have almost no hope for our future in our present form. Something will see a better tomorrow, either an upgraded version of ourselves or some new entity unlike anything else that has lived on Earth. But it won’t be us, we don’t even know what a better future means broadly. We cling to stories and explanations to explain feelings originating in 500,000 years of ice-age survival and fighting each other.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I thought were were discussing rationality. It seems like you are saying humans are not rational because they are also irrational, and I’m saying that the only reason we exist as we do today is because of lots of rational plans and decisions. Ultimately we’re both rational and irrational as a species. The fact that it’s much harder to argue that we’re rational in this current moment in time is what vexes me. It’s definitely a change. Facts made a much bigger impact 20 years ago.
ameancow@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’m just saying that they only did because we had social pressure on us to respect facts, because we still largely functioned in large social groups. People don’t actually care if facts are real and rational and good or make, they care far, far more about if their tribe-mates are going to make fun of them for not knowing the right facts according to that tribe. I firmly believe that the only thing that makes the majority of people respect reality is the pressure to conform so they don’t lose social standing or worse, be expelled from the tribe.
Now that we have atomization, our realities are entirely flexible and we don’t suffer for it, if anything we find these pseudo-tribes of invisible people to populate our heads online who will validate even the most irrational thoughts, so our driving motivation to respect shared reality just isn’t there anymore, or is dwindling rapidly at large scales.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You might be onto something here. I’m not sure though. I have a feeling it’s complicated and something we won’t fully understand any time soon.