Comment on Instead of everyone leaving NATO, could everyone else just kick the US out?

• 14th_cylon@lemmy.zip ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  the policy shoud be “this is union of democratic countries”

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  • Cowbee_Admirer@reddthat.com ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    And who decides which countries are democratic and which are not?

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    • 14th_cylon@lemmy.zip ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      we have the whole field of expertise for that, we call it the political science. and no one with more than 2 brain cells thinks china or russia are democratic countries.

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      • Cowbee_Admirer@reddthat.com ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I doubt political scientists in China agree with, say, German political scientists’ definition of democracy. What supranational organization will decide which countrie’s political scientists are correct?

        I could perfectly well argue that France isn’t Democratic. The majority of the population voted for a leftist coalition that is being blocked by the president of the republic from being elected, and Macron has already skipped the democratic will of the people by declaring emergency measures to pass antidemocratic legislation such as the increase of retirement age.

        In Greece, when a leftist government (Syriza) was elected around 2010 after the huge economic crisis around a platform of reviewing the state debt and democratically decided on referendum to do so, the European Central Bank threatened with dropping its obligations towards Greece and forced neoliberal austerity policy.

        In Berlin, the people democratically voted through direct referendum for a cap to rent prices, and shortly after the highest court of Germany declared it illegal and rent prices were uncapped again (despite economic studies of the policy results in its limited lifespan prove it was effective in lowering rent pricing).

        In Spain (my homeland), when a leftist party (Podemos) was getting ranked 3rd in the country by polls and was on trend to overtake the socialdemocrats (PSOE), an illegal police operation directed from the ministry of internal affairs fabricated false evidence of funding of said leftist party from Venezuela and Iran and leaked these falsified police reports to all media before the elections, which destroyed the popularity of the party.

        I gotta say, being a leftist in Europe, it doesn’t feel democratic at all that all the choice we have is to vote on the colour of the party that will impose neoliberal austerity policy and raise military expenditure (all parties in the EU do this).

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      • Guilvareux@feddit.uk ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        So having 2 braincells is a policy then!

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• Buffalox@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The standard for NATO has always been to only accept democracies.
  I see no reason why we would change that requirement for a new alliance.
  I’d even go so far as to make respect of human rights a demand too like we have in EU, so we for instance exclude countries with death penalty.

  There needs to be common values that we want to protect, with NATO it was democracy, based on our experience with USA, we need to extend that to include respect for international law and human rights as well as protecting democracy.

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  • frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    LOL, how silly.

    Russia and China are democracies - they have systems of voting, candidates, politicians fall in and out of favor with the public, etc. In fact, China is innovating on how to get MORE participatory systems into their Republic that aren’t limited to gerrymandered popularity tests.

    But human rights? You’re joking, right? Guantanamo Bay. Extraordinary rendition. Abu Ghraib. Vietnam. Cambodia. Laos. Guam. School of the Americas. Iran-Contra. Overthrowing the Shah. Operation Paperclip. Operation Gladio. CIA black sites. Drone striking weddings. Drone striking funerals for people who died at those weddings. Zero Units. Napalm. Agent Orange. Land mines. Somalia. Libya. Iraq. Afghanistan. Kidnapping a head of state. Double tapping fishermen. Spying on all communications of their own citizens. The Five Eyes spying on each other’s citizens and trading the intel back to each other.

    You think respect for human rights is required for NATO membership? Do you know what NATO has even done?

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    • Buffalox@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Russia and China are democracies

      No they are not, they are authoritarian regimes that oppress any political competition through censorship, imprisonment and even death. Just like we’ve seen with Navalny and Jack Ma. Try to look up tiananmen square in China. Or just ask a Chinese AI about it, it won’t tell you anything.
      You are a complete idiot, and I really mean literal idiot for calling those 2 countries democracies, there are clearly standards for what constitute a democracy, and Russia and China are not in any way within those standards. Free press and freedom of expression without threat of persecution by the government is a requirement.
      en.wikipedia.org/…/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
      Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote for the dear leader, there has to be ability to participate in the whole political process without being oppressed.

      But human rights? You’re joking, right? Guantanamo Bay.

      Now you are just being stupid again, I said it shout be EXTENDED to human rights if we make a NATO replacement, which we obviously can’t do while USA is a member, because USA nolonger even pretend to observe human rights.

      Don’t bother responding. I have blocked you, your points are moronic, and I don’t want to ever read anything from you again.
      Get off the meth for christ sake.

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      • frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        So then America isn’t a democracy because it persecuted Assange, Snowden, Manning, and many many others over its long history, right?

        Because it outlawed the communist party and persecuted every single person in every industry that was associated with the communists, black listing them and ending entire careers let alone lives, right?

        Oh wait, you blocked me. Nevermind

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  • Cowbee_Admirer@reddthat.com ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The standard for NATO has always been to only accept democracies

    As defined by whom exactly? Chinese citizens will tell you that they’re in a democracy and very satisfied with it, much more so than Spaniards for example (my homeland)

    I’d even go so far as to make respect of human rights a demand too like we have in EU

    EU is literally funding the genocide of Palestinians with 0 economic or political sanctions to Israel coming from governments. By that logic, all of EU deserves out of NATO immediately. NATO also triggered the Libyan civil war through bombing, bombed Yugoslavia, and many NATO countries directly participated in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

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