Comment on Circumcision classed as possible child abuse in draft CPS document

• UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  removing something like a lip, eyelid, or nose

  That’s absurd and you should know better. Tell someone who had their nose removed that “it’s just like circumcision” and see how they respond.

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  • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    They’d probably respond similarly to telling somebody who was circumcised without consent and doesn’t like it that it’s just a harmless cosmetic surgery. Or telling a trans person forced to experience the wrong puberty that it isn’t a big deal/we can’t allow trans kids to go on puberty blockers because they might regret it (despite the fact that all the effects of puberty blockers are reversed by…stopping taking them).

    Source: am trans, was forced through the wrong puberty, and was circumcised without consent as a baby and hate it. Did you know that there are people out there so traumatized by being circumcised as a baby that they willingly use clamps and rubber bands to slowly stretch out the skin on their dick until it looks like a foreskin again? The info on how to do it is easily accessible online and the tools are easily purchased. I know this because I discovered it and considered it not long before I discovered words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria” and found out that there were words for feelings that I did not have the language to understand before.

    I used those specific body parts as examples for a few reasons. Namely, they’re all designed to protect mucus membranes and keep them moist, like the foreskin. Removing them would also be permanent and result in negative effects - like how circumcision causes nerve damage and desensitization. There really isn’t a great comparison, and those who had it done as a kid don’t know what they’re missing. We do have plenty of reports from people who had it done later in life, though, and there’s plenty of data on the loss of sensitivity and struggle with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post-circumcision.

    I guess the closest thing would be if people were ritualistically shooting lasers into their babies’ eyes to damage the lenses so that they needed glasses or something. Some people just like the way that glasses look. I knew a guy who didn’t need glasses and wore a pair without any lenses in them just because he liked the way that they looked. But given the choice between glasses and 20/20 vision, I’d personally take the 20/20 vision, thanks.

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  • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    If we started doing it at birth and told them it was normal, then yeah its the same.

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• mean_bean279@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  There’s more reasons to have it done. It’s ultimately something that parents should only consider if they have a history of urinary tract issues since often times foreskin can cause issues like UTIs to be more frequent.

  Also, as a male with a circumcised dick I haven’t needed therapy for it. So comparing it to a trans person is kind of rude to the trans community. It’s also straight up not a big deal. My parents made decisions they felt were right at the time. Life goes on. I’m doing the same with my child and the hope is that I make more good decisions than bad.

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  • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’m trans and I brought it up for a couple of reasons: first, Weevil brought up gender affirming surgeries in regards to trans people as part of some slippery slope argument. Secondly, trans medical issues tie very well into my exceptions that I mentioned in the second part of my comment - medical necessity and consent.

    You may not have any issues with being circumcised, but there are plenty of men out there who do. To the point that there’s a “foreskin restoration” process that involves using clamps and rubber bands to yank on the skin of your penis until it stretches into some resemblance of a foreskin. It doesn’t reverse any of the consequences of circumcision, but some men at least feel less dysphoric after doing it. I myself thought that my dysphoria was related to being circumcised before I learned words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria.” Still not a fan of what was done to me, though. Enough to weigh in on conversations around the subject in the way that I have.

    Generally, I think it’s a situation of “people don’t miss what they never knew they had.” There’s plenty of data from men who were circumcised later in life reporting a loss of sensitivity and difficulty with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post procedure compared to before. And this is why I compare it to being forced through an unwanted puberty. Permanent physical changes that you do not consent to. A baby cannot consent to having their genitals permanently altered. And a trans kid unable to access puberty blockers is as capable of preventing an unwanted puberty as a baby is capable of fighting a doctor/Rabbi/priest/etc.

    Now for the exceptions: consent I’ve kinda already talked about, but if you understand the consequences and want to do it, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to anymore than somebody who wants to get a Prince Albert or a Jacob’s Ladder. And the big one, medical necessity. There are a number of reasons that it would be medically necessary, and they’re all valid regardless of the age at which they appear. Phimosis is a real thing that can hit at pretty much any age up to post puberty. I once worked with a poor kid who had to get it done for that reason at the age of 18. Although, based on a comment I saw elsewhere in this thread about the number of babies who die from UTIs related to circumcision, there may be some room to talk about what strictly is and isn’t “medically necessary.”

    Basically, if your doctor says that you need to for health reasons or it’s your own informed choice, go right ahead. But if you’re forcing it on a baby due to peer pressure from the dead or because of some sense of “my dad hit me and I turned out fine,” then that isn’t right and should not be considered kosher.

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    • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Generally, I think it’s a situation of “people don’t miss what they never knew they had.”

      Great insight!

      I would add, though, that you absolutely can miss what you never knew you had, even if you don’t know you’re missing it. (Else, why the concept of eggs?) I have seen several intact men in these communities say that their primary sexual sensation comes from their foreskin. Say you were one of those men, and had your primary source of sexual sensation amputated at birth. You could go through much of your life knowing that something was “not right” with sex, but not knowing what.

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      • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        I completely agree and experienced it myself (missing what you don’t have). I just meant in the terms of a bunch of replies that I’ve gotten in here to the tune of “I’m a cis guy who was circumcised at birth and it doesn’t bother me at all.”

        There’s the possibility of something akin to how some trans people experience permanent low-grade dysphoria and it affects their frame of reference. Basically, if we were to map the feelings of dysphoria out on a scale from 0 to 10, the average person would be at a 0 under normal circumstances, but some people are born at a 2 or a 3. So to them, a 5 would be the average person’s 3, and experiencing a 0 would be like getting glasses for the first time and realizing that trees have individual leaves and this is how everybody else sees the world. If you can only reach a 6 on a scale of how enjoyable an experience is while the average person can hit a 10, how would you have the frame of reference to know that you are or aren’t missing something when you’ve never felt a 7 or above? So these people saying that they weren’t negatively affected could just be mistaking a 6 for a 10 and there’s no way for us or them to know for certain.

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  • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    You seem incapable of thinking of anyone besides yourself.

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  • Bloomcole@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    BS

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