As a progressive I don’t align with that.
I don’t like this very much… I’m a progressive, and I like both suits and formal situations!
I definitely think there’s some issues with a lot of the western notions of formality, with it being very Euro-centric and sometimes oozing with pretentious classism, often racism and misogyny, but that’s not an issue with formality – it’s an issue of colonialism, patriarchy, and white supremacy. In my opinion, anyway. It’s a matter of being inclusive and progressive everywhere, regardless of formality and dress-code.
Also, humans are social creatures. If you’re a progressive, surely you care about other people. I certainly do! Navigating formal situations is, in a way, a test to see how well you can fit in, yes, because fitting in matters; It matters how much you can relate to others; It matters that you can engage with other people on their terms; It matters that you can show that you understand what others value and can accommodate it; It matters that you can sacrifice some of your expressive liberty, for a short while, so you can be part of a group or a moment.
I’m not saying formality is some requisite of social life or anything, but I am saying that that stark rejection of it sounds antisocial, let me tell you. Well, to be totally fair it sounds neuro-divergent, more than anything, but I don’t mean to diagnose you either. You wouldn’t attend a friend’s wedding because it’s formal? I guess you just aren’t friends with people that would want you to wear a suit to their wedding. Whatever, feel free to disregard the last couple of sentences.
I like people being very diverse.
Also, if your idea of diversity is “no dress-code”, frankly, that’s ridiculous. I admit that there’s, as I mentioned, quite a bit of classism and misogyny and racism in some groups, and those groups do end up being associated with more formal attire – I get that – but to blame that on suits or formality is ridiculous! Why are you talking like dress-code means people aren’t very diverse?!
I really do take offense to that position. The range of people that wear suits or go to formal occasions is extremely diverse, and to imply otherwise is beyond reductive.
A suit is like the uniform of the business world.
So? I don’t care. Why would anyone care? I thought you were about wearing what you love and expressing yourself, why does it matter that businessman wear it too? I think corduroy pants look nice, so I wear corduroy pants. I think funky ties look nice, so I wear funky ties. If I think a suit looks nice, I’m gonna wear the suit – CEO be damned!
Very boring and non-expressive.
And that’s just false. I mean, did you even see the pictures I showed? Do they look the same to you? Do they express the same things?!
If you think they do, I don’t think there’s anything worth saying to you on this subject.
Bloefz@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Other individuals yes, but not being part of a group. If I align with a group like a political party, it’s just a temporary thing while our goals align. I have no deep loyalty to any group or country.
Here in Europe it’s definitely often associated with “old money”. Or people wanting to show they are powerful or rich, or that they want to hang out with people who are. I don’t believe being powerful or rich makes someone a better person or more important, so I don’t want to make special arrangement just because they have this group code.
However, maybe you are in the US? Progressivism here in Europe is a lot more left-wing than in Europe. Something like the Democratic party would be right-wing here, and the republican party extreme or at least radical right. I’d be more left than Bernie Sanders to give an idea. Many left-wing party politicians also don’t wear suits.
Oh yes I’m AuDHD so yeah I am definitely neurodivergent. And no I wouldn’t attend a formal wedding. I’ll be super uncomfortable and unhappy and people will see that and be bothered by it, so there is no point. Better not to be there. I wouldn’t enjoy it anyway. I’ve tried twice and it went down really badly.
No it’s not no dress code, I do go to dress code events. But more in the alt/goth/fetish sphere. But that leaves a LOT of room for expression. A black tie event for example does not, at least not for the guys. Women have a lot more wiggle room (and I’m kinda genderqueer but that kind of event is not very accepting of that either, lol)
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. It’s not the people per se but the events and what they represent. Events that I have seen that required dress codes and I have not shown up for:
Well I see they are a different colour but they are essentially the same. One of them isn’t wearing a tie which I like (I don’t do ties anyway, they are a hard limit for me)
I do have to say I didn’t consider that you might actually like wearing suits. That’s something I didn’t think of, as I hate them so much. That changes things indeed. I was more arguing against events where people are required to wear them.
gon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 hours ago
That’s literally the whole point.
This is more of a philosophical discussion, I guess.
Nope, I’m European. I’m also much further left than Bernie Sanders, and yeah I definitely see the lack of suits there. It might be a rejection of formality, but I don’t know… I’d be much more inclined to say that it is a rejection of the establishment and a way to approximate themselves with everyday people, by dressing more like the average person dresses on a daily basis.
The point of the dress-code in politics, at least partially, is to signal that you are meant to be there. It’s supposed to help you be taken more seriously – this goes in tandem with that thing I said about the suit looking intentional. It also equalizes everyone; By looking similar, you can focus on what they have to say and less on what they’re wearing (“Oh look, that politician is wearing a cool shirt… Wait, what did they just say?”).
Not wearing a suit definitely brings some eyes your way, which is also a reason some politicians do it – like Zelenskyy, who’s not wearing suits because of the war, but also because it stands out and forces people to think about the war. Still, as you might’ve seen, the White House was rather upset with him over this; Not wearing a suit signals that you don’t belong there, and many people (American fascists or not), are gonna see someone that can’t even wear a suit (“Can’t even put on a suit, how’re they gonna steer a country?”).
The suit has meaning. It’s communication.
By having rules, this communication becomes clearer. Every deviation matters and is noticed.
I mean, I just don’t see this at all. We might be from different countries (probably), but I just don’t get that association at all. It’s a suit. It’s the uniform of business, as you said, but… Yeah, it’s formal. It says special event, or lawyer, or something. Then again, it depends on the suit, so I wouldn’t even go that far, frankly. Some suits just say “fashion”. That’s my opinion, anyway. Maybe it’s because over here we have suits as traditional academic wear… Some pictures follow.
Coimbra traje
Porto traje
Yeah you definitely sounded like it, but again I just didn’t want to do some virtual-armchair-diagnosis or anything LOL I’ve heard many neurodivergent people have trouble with clothes and formal events. I have some pretty bad social anxiety, so I relate to that, to a certain extent.
Well, yeah, but those are just shitty events for shitty things. The only event you listed that I would maybe debate was the restaurant, but then again I haven’t ever stepped foot in a restaurant with a dress-code.
The colour is different, the fit is completely different, the shirt is different, and yeah the tie is different (the 2nd suit is wearing a camp collar shirt, which is actually explicitly informal). I mean, pretty much the only thing they have in common is that the pants match the blazer, meaning, they’re both suits.
Corduroy suit
Is this the same as well?
To me, they’re clearly all completely different, quite frankly. They’re all suits, but very different suits for very different occasions.
Well, whatever, I guess.