That scales down to the home level easily. Box filled with cement dust, dirt, sand, gypsum, gravel is all free material. Water gets more heat lift from heat pumps, but can’t store as much heat in a volume as dirt. Both are highly complimentary, because delivering hot water to everywhere in a home is efficient, quiet, dust free, heat. But if you are lucky enough to have centralized option, that is easier.
It takes an extremely large volume of any of these materials to store any useful amount of heat to get you through a cold night or something. The volume looks more like a room than a box, unless you can somehow make it molten that is
I did math for Toronto, Canada. 2000l of hot water was enough (2m^3^). Winters here have gotten cloudier from great lakes warming. Instead of more water as a buffer, dirt is much more space efficient, and just needs the hot water routed through it to get heat transfer.
The volume looks more like a room than a box, unless you can somehow make it molten that is
If hydronic heating system was already being directed towards outer walls instead of straight up from water storage, then a tall “hot dirt” storage, and dual cold water mixing valves (pre and post dirt flow) next to each other, it’s less in additional storage costs per heat unit than water, though it does use more electricity to input heat compared to heat pump.
No need for temperatures higher than melting/softening point of copper to get useful heat storage for a home. Just water can be enough if you have the room.
Interested in your calculations for 2kl, do you have a small, highly efficient house? For my house, IIRC I needed something like 3000L (glycol, so a little less capacity than pure water) at 30C to maintain 16C in the house for 12h. That’s calculating losses at average winter night temps of -8C and a relatively efficient adobe house of 150m2, and including estimated losses for a buried tank surrounded by foam installation.
Roughly:
3kw/hr worst case home losses, times 12h is 36kw, 36/0.00114 kWh/L is 31.5k liter-degrees, 31.5k/14 degree temp drop is 2.2kL, so 3kL inclusive losses. Experimentally verified heat loss calcs after installation of the 9kw resistive boiler which used around 30kwh for the coldest 12h winter nights which ends up being about a 50% duty cycle at the medium heat setting of 5kw. Yes my electricity bill was $500/month for two months a year when pulling it all from the grid.
If I was building the house i’d spec a 1m mixed layer slab and run two layers of hydronics through it. The bottom layer is the heat storage side and the top layer is the home comfort side. The waste heat from the storage dumps into the house and you’ve got a ready made heat battery right where you need it. Run your resistive boiler while the sun is shining to get your heat battery toasty and at night use your pumps to move the heat up when home envelope losses are more than the heat battery leaks up through the floor.
Heat pump didn’t make sense in my climate because there is no need for cooling, when heat is needed it’s usually way too cold for heat pumps to be efficient, and we have basically unlimited sun and therefore energy. High desert New Mexico.
I found the book “heating with renewable energy” helpful when designing my system
hot water to everywhere in a home is efficient, quiet
Have you never lived in an apartment building?
I don’t know why we haven’t come up with better solutions for piping. Or maybe it’s just because this building was built very cheaply. But anyway… the pipes make quite a loud banging sound if you shut them fast enough. And a lot of whoooshing in the walls just when using hot water.
High rise apartment buildings have a challenge with pumping water up more than 3-5 floors. This can be solved with intermediate storage on floors, but for high rises, forced air is the usual solution. Heat storage still works well enough with forced air, but water is much better due to internal piping through heat source, where air volume is harder to do there, and if gaining heat from outer shell, then insulation meant to keep heat in is not as good at heat transfer. Water is most perfect heat fluid in world. Air not so much.
And a lot of whoooshing in the walls just when using hot water.
This doesn’t apply for heat delivery. Tends to be continuous. A faucet is different.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
That scales down to the home level easily. Box filled with cement dust, dirt, sand, gypsum, gravel is all free material. Water gets more heat lift from heat pumps, but can’t store as much heat in a volume as dirt. Both are highly complimentary, because delivering hot water to everywhere in a home is efficient, quiet, dust free, heat. But if you are lucky enough to have centralized option, that is easier.
acchariya@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
It takes an extremely large volume of any of these materials to store any useful amount of heat to get you through a cold night or something. The volume looks more like a room than a box, unless you can somehow make it molten that is
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
I did math for Toronto, Canada. 2000l of hot water was enough (2m^3^). Winters here have gotten cloudier from great lakes warming. Instead of more water as a buffer, dirt is much more space efficient, and just needs the hot water routed through it to get heat transfer.
If hydronic heating system was already being directed towards outer walls instead of straight up from water storage, then a tall “hot dirt” storage, and dual cold water mixing valves (pre and post dirt flow) next to each other, it’s less in additional storage costs per heat unit than water, though it does use more electricity to input heat compared to heat pump.
No need for temperatures higher than melting/softening point of copper to get useful heat storage for a home. Just water can be enough if you have the room.
acchariya@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Interested in your calculations for 2kl, do you have a small, highly efficient house? For my house, IIRC I needed something like 3000L (glycol, so a little less capacity than pure water) at 30C to maintain 16C in the house for 12h. That’s calculating losses at average winter night temps of -8C and a relatively efficient adobe house of 150m2, and including estimated losses for a buried tank surrounded by foam installation.
Roughly: 3kw/hr worst case home losses, times 12h is 36kw, 36/0.00114 kWh/L is 31.5k liter-degrees, 31.5k/14 degree temp drop is 2.2kL, so 3kL inclusive losses. Experimentally verified heat loss calcs after installation of the 9kw resistive boiler which used around 30kwh for the coldest 12h winter nights which ends up being about a 50% duty cycle at the medium heat setting of 5kw. Yes my electricity bill was $500/month for two months a year when pulling it all from the grid.
If I was building the house i’d spec a 1m mixed layer slab and run two layers of hydronics through it. The bottom layer is the heat storage side and the top layer is the home comfort side. The waste heat from the storage dumps into the house and you’ve got a ready made heat battery right where you need it. Run your resistive boiler while the sun is shining to get your heat battery toasty and at night use your pumps to move the heat up when home envelope losses are more than the heat battery leaks up through the floor.
Heat pump didn’t make sense in my climate because there is no need for cooling, when heat is needed it’s usually way too cold for heat pumps to be efficient, and we have basically unlimited sun and therefore energy. High desert New Mexico.
I found the book “heating with renewable energy” helpful when designing my system
Dasus@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Have you never lived in an apartment building?
I don’t know why we haven’t come up with better solutions for piping. Or maybe it’s just because this building was built very cheaply. But anyway… the pipes make quite a loud banging sound if you shut them fast enough. And a lot of whoooshing in the walls just when using hot water.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
High rise apartment buildings have a challenge with pumping water up more than 3-5 floors. This can be solved with intermediate storage on floors, but for high rises, forced air is the usual solution. Heat storage still works well enough with forced air, but water is much better due to internal piping through heat source, where air volume is harder to do there, and if gaining heat from outer shell, then insulation meant to keep heat in is not as good at heat transfer. Water is most perfect heat fluid in world. Air not so much.
This doesn’t apply for heat delivery. Tends to be continuous. A faucet is different.
Dasus@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Pegging your pardon, mister.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KtyzY2rwOg