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jacksilver@lemmy.world 3 weeks agoUsability.
Windows and Mac are both easier to use for the standard user.
I’m a technical person and even I struggle with what/how the hell I’m supposed to even install applications on Linux:
Should I download the binaries? Should I use snap/flatpak/etc? If I do one vs the other which is more up to date? If I can’t find it in the software store can I trust random online sites?
And that’s just finding applications. Most people don’t have hours of free time to read forums to understand how to fix something that broke (assuming the distro they choose even has a thread relating to the issue).
Wait, this seems completely backwards.
Windows: Here is some forum post to some rando’s software. SomeShit.exe. Should I install it?
As opposed to Linux: I look in the category of the software I am interested in, click install.
And as far as breaking… I use linux because it doesn’t break. I don’t have time for windows bullshit.
I feel like clearly everyone here is smarter than me or something.
I’ve been running Kubuntu for a while and here is a recent anecdote and you can tell me if I’m just an idiot. I went to install an application so opened up the software store. After installing I found out it was an out of date version of the software. I went to the companies site and they recommended a flatpak install. Kubuntu doesn’t have flatpak enabled by default, so I have to lookup how to install flatpak and could then install the flatpak. However another piece of software recommends using the apt install, and another the Kubuntu store is fine. All of this is okay, but now there are three different ways I have to manage my software.
Its fine for me, but if that’s really the case, you’ll loose the average user at using the command line to install flatpak.
average user at using the command line to install flatpak.
Kubuntu require you to use a command line to get flatpaks? Usually it is just a toggle in a package manager. I think Fedora is on by default.
I just looked it up again and it seems like they require you run a command in the console to enable flatpak. I’m not sure if it’s cause they use snaps, given it’s an Ubuntu derivative. I suspect as flatpak continues to win out it’ll all tend that way.
However, the fact this its even a discussion is kinda my point.
Usability.
Windows and Mac are both easier to use for the standard user.
Not at all true anymore for Windoze. Windows 7 was the last installment where that was true. Linux distributions are consistent. Once shown how the basics works, e.g., apt install or pacman -S and the general whereabouts of settings or software, it’s super easy to get them going, indefinitely. Even troubleshooting is within reach because searching the settings isn’t a maze within a maze (except for Gnome sometimes). Windoze keeps changing shit constantly, reinstalls uninstalled software, search algorithm is horrible and has Bing search results within the menu enabled by default [the fuck?], updates don’t indicate how long they’ll last, setting a default program often requires configuring it manually for every file extension, oh goddamn fuckers I have to stop typing because Microsoft pisses me off so bad.
Tabula rasa, if I had to teach a 70-year-old who’s never touched a computer before, to do so, I’d pick Linux every time. Consistency and customization is key.
apt install as the basics? It’s not even needed. Try LinuxMint, it’s way more simple and usable than Windows, no shell commands necessary
I’m a technical person and even I struggle with what/how the hell I’m supposed to even install applications on Linux:
On my distro it’s 1) Open App Store 2) Search for Software 3) hit “install”.
Should I download the binaries? Should I use snap/flatpak/etc?
That’s a matter of personal preference, but once you understand the difference, which is really not that complex, then the choice should be practically automatic.
If I do one vs the other which is more up to date?
You can check the version number.
If I can’t find it in the software store can I trust random online sites?
You have the same issue in Windows.
I wasn’t asking for guidance, I’m just pointing out that these are all things that reduce usability. While you’re right that some of these issues also exist on the windows side, it’s not as prolific.
If more people grew up using Linux it might not be as bad, but even still Linux can still break easily and in many ways offers too much freedom for the average user.
I think that a lot of technical people forget that the average user is quick to give up and has a knack for breaking things. Many of the restrictive elements in Mac and Windows are to protect the average user, usually to the bane of the super user.
I wasn’t asking for guidance, I’m just pointing out that these are all things that reduce usability.
I wasn’t giving you guidance, I was jut pointing out that you are making it sound like some insane struggle to get and install programs on Linux. Usually it’s even more straightforward than in windows, especially if you already know what you are doing.
I’m just pointing out that these are all things that reduce usability.
Those are all examples of things that increase usability. Having multiple different ways to install a piece of software is only a problem if you allow choice paralysis to consume you. Right now you know just enough to know those options exist, but not their purpose or function. Literally less than 1/2 hour of googling would answer all of those questions, and with the benefit that you now better understand the useful functionality of your operating system. You only have to spend that 1/2 hour one time, and for the rest of your life you wouldn’t stress out over a flatpak vs a binary, or whatever. And again, for a new user they are probably best served by just opening the app store and hitting install. Easy, breezy, beautiful.
While you’re right that some of these issues also exist on the windows side, it’s not as prolific.
That’s just not true. Linux has had app stores for decades. Windows didn’t. Until recently, if you needed an app for Windows you had to trust ‘random online sites’ to get software. Now that Windows has it’s own app store, you can use both ways install apps in Windows- no different than in Linux.
I think that a lot of technical people forget that the average user is quick to give up and has a knack for breaking things. Many of the restrictive elements in Mac and Windows are to protect the average user, usually to the bane of the super user.
I just remember being a new Windows user and having to learn what a .dll and a .exe was. What the registry was, what installer ‘wizards’ were and how to properly use them, how to find the place in the control panel where you uninstall programs, how to update my system, what ‘fragmentation’ meant how how to solve it, how to not get viruses and how to remove them if you did, how the file system was set up and how to navigate it- There was a lot of stuff to learn, and you either learned it or you weren’t able to properly use your system. Same when I briefly switched to OS X.
It’s no different in Linux. People just don’t want to take the time to learn how things are done in Linux. The reality is it’s really not that hard to get up and running in Linux at all. And while you can always go deeper and learn more- its typically not necessary nowadays. I put Linux on my moms old computer when she was in her 70’s. She was not a techie person at all (extreme understatement). It took about 5 minutes max to get her up to speed. It was never an issue.
Many of the restrictive elements in Mac and Windows are to protect the average user
It’s simply a matter of readjusting your mindset. If you are about to do a simple and straightforward task that you already know how to do, chances are in Linux there are 10 other ways to accomplish the same thing- but you are in no way forced to know what they are or how to do them. If you are curious and want to know- that’s great. Take a little bit of time and learn them. If not- don’t.
Choice is good.
Oh, no, too much freedom. Can’t have that.
Instead of saying “The average user can’t do this”, why not let the average user try?
Average user here. I don’t have time to take up PCs as a hobby. When I need a computer, I need it to just do what I want so I can be done with it.
PC hobbyists always discount the amount of time and effort it takes to be a PC hobbyist. Like a recipe writer who completely ignores prep time and says a complicated recipe will only take 45 minutes.
Cause there is literally nothing stopping the average user from trying, and yet they typically choose windows or macs.
But also, let’s be honest, most people just use a tablet or their phone now anyways. If you believe these numbers, people are choosing even more locked down OSs like android and IOS. Trying to get them to use linux just isn’t likely.
I’m not anti Linux, I use it all the time. But trying to convince the average user to change their OS is an uphill battle.
Windows and Mac are both easier to use for the standard user.
I really doubt that a standard user would have that much problems to do his work with the normal programs (an office suite, a browsere a little else) once Linux with a DE (let be KDE, GNOME or whatever) is installed.
The limitation is not the disto itself, it is the lack of support for some software (like Grasshooper or CAD)
It’s possible that I underestimate the average user, but I did work IT at one point in my life and I still vividly recall needing to point out to someone that their computer wasn’t turning on becuase it wasnt plugged in.
If we go down this road, I am old enough to remember people pinning 5 1/4 floppy disks to the cabinet using magnets and then being surprise it did not work anymore, or people that when asked to do a copy of the disk went to the copy machine.
But that was at the beginning (199x), now I would not consider “average user” someone who is not even able to realize that the pc is not plugged in, tbh.
My example was just to highlight that the “average user” may not be as technically capable as many in this thread propose. But that’s also why I called out I may be underestimating the average user.
AeroGlen@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Windows is a marketing and spying platform. It is targeted by any and every scammer, hacker, used for harvesting your data by programs you install. It is sold as an “easy to use” computer - most ppl don’t even know what an OS is - until 6 months later when the CPU is at 100% and you don’t know why, the hard drive is filling up and you no longer know if your files are local or in “the cloud”. I service older computers for friends and family on a regular basis. Half of them now have Ubuntu installed on old laptops and it’s an eye opener for them. Because most people don’t install new apps. They just want to browse, read emails, open documents, watch movies and listen to music. If you avoid snap and flatpak and install with APT or just download an AppImage you’re going to be ok.