We should do both.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 days ago
Veganism is good, necessary even, but more than voting we need to actually overthrow capitalism and replace it with socialism. Profit will destroy the planet unless we take control of the reigns from capital.
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 days ago
Yep, but for systemic changes socialism is necessary. We should do what we can right now, but we can’t cause systemic change without socialism.
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
I agree, really I should have written “We have to do both.”
SapientLasagna@lemmy.ca 4 days ago
Socialism so far has an absolutely terrible track record with environmental protection. Unless you’re just talking about being able to directly force societal change in general, in which case you’re arguing for eco-flavoured despotism.
Socialism doesn’t even promise environmental protection, rather being focused on worker rights and minimizing inequality.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 days ago
Socialism has a better track record than capitalism, but either way, my point is that necessary systemic changes need socialism for them to happen. Socialism isn’t a promise, it’s a mode of production. Further, countries like the PRC are rapdily electrifying, at the top of solar panel production and infrastructure initiatives, and combatting desertification, that’s the power of a publicly driven economy.
MITM0@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Yeah plants, the only thing that creates Oxygen
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
Actually the majority of atmospheric oxygen is produced by phytoplankton, which are mostly bacteria and protists.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
On a planet were 95-99% of people consume animal products, and still heavily participate in the systems of animal captivity, brutality, and exploitation; can you explain how overthrowing capitalism and replacing it with socialism is going to make a vegan world happen?
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 days ago
Socialism will not automatically create vegan world, it hasn’t done so anywhere socialism exists. However, it does swap from profits as the end-all, be-all of how society is organized, to one where humanity can better plan production and meet people’s needs. If capital is in the driver’s seat, then the meat industry will continue to perpetuate said brutality and environmental destruction unimpeded. If humanity is in the driver’s seat, then we can actually work against what would be assured in a profit driven model.
The swap to veganism will never be instant, but it will be largely impossible without human supremacy over capital.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
That’s a pretty fair assessment, though it’s hard to imagine that being much less of an uphill battle. People still place a significant amount of their identity in what they eat. In the US at least, a culture of perceived personal freedoms still heavily prevails. Even though vegans are already relegated to trying to appeal to people to change their individual choices voluntarily, people still frequently accuse us of militancy and being tyrannical - even though we’ve virtually never even had real representation in government, aside from very small hard-won anti animal abuse laws that have resulted from extremely risky investigative operations.
Any governmental system that makes any attempts to shift us all in a more vegan direction would quite easily provoke significant backlash and possibly even the threat of overthrow.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 days ago
Sure, it wouldn’t be easy, but it’s nearly impossible under capitalism. What would realistically happen is the state would heavily subsidize plant based food and develop economies of scale, and increase requirements on animal products for more “humane” treatment, until gradually animal products are phased out culturally. A top-down command for animal liberation would be commandist if the masses don’t want it, so raising political consiousness would be a key part of that struggle.