Comment on Why is the manosphere on the rise? UN Women sounds the alarm over online misogyny

• Fedditor385@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Daycare, men who work with children in general. It feels like taboo, and I assume it’s because the general opinion seems to be that men that want to be around children are most likely pedophiles. I never heard of a program to include more men in daycare.

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  • FloMo@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Excellent example, and I sincerely appreciate you engaging in good faith discussion!

    I agree that being masculine should by default not be a barrier - social or otherwise - from working with children.

    How do we begin to change that as a society?

    Although I can’t think of the solution myself, I also don’t see how advancing equality for feminine individuals would hold back equality for masculine individuals.

    As mentioned in another comment, a lot of these problems seem to stem from the enforcement of dated gender norms.

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    • captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      This is one where I think the ball is very much in the women’s court.

      I’ve seen a trend of vertical videos of fathers playing with their children, with a caption similar to “my latest ick.”

      Millennial men are the most engaged cohort of dads in living memory, and women have responded pretty poorly to this.

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    • Fedditor385@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Thank you, I am actually shocked by such positive feedback, as I never expect anything positive in online discussions :D

      Well, there is not much that needs to be adjusted in traditional values. Or, to put it lightly, that was never the problem to begin with. In traditional roles, both genders use their advantage to the max, and it has worked for millenia.

      The issue is that there is a smaller % of both genders, who wish to do something “out of the norm”. Men who want to work in childcare and women who want to drive trucks. That small % should be able to do so, without discrimination. That’s it. That’s all to it, why this entire woke thing blew up. We should preserve the traditional roles as they have proven themselves to work effectively, but we need to adjust it to be flexible for things that don’t fit in the traditional norms.

      From somewhere came the narrative that men are gatekeeping women from all important positions, and women in fight for their rights to be equal went the same route to basically gatekeep men in the name of equality. And now we are in this weird limbo where the genders seem to undermine each other whereever they can.

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• sudneo@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Not OP, but positions like nurses or teachers are very female dominated. It’s not like males cannot reach those positions, but there are social obstacles to that. To make an example from my country, in Italy primary school teachers are > 90% female. I believe in kindergarten they reach 97 or 98%. This is also partially the result of strict gender roles than discriminate both men and women in terms of caring for children (I.e., women are de facto forced to do that, men are pushed away), which then reinforces the social practice of women doing all the caring jobs.

  This is IMHO a problem for both men and women, but probably it’s not from the same perspective as what OP meant…

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  • grue@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    The difference is that, typically, the lack of women in male-dominated fields is due to them being actively pushed away from things they want to do, while the lack of men in female-dominated fields is due to those fields being less prestigious/well-paid (often due to being traditionally female) and them not wanting to pick them in the first place. But when they do decide to enter those fields, nobody’s actively trying to stop/discourage them.

    Superficially there may seem to be similarities in circumstance, but the amount of agency men and women have to enter opposite-gender-dominated careers is vastly different.

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    • ryathal@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      It’s the same in female fields, it’s not just prestige. Men face increased scrutiny when working with children. Male nurses are expected to perform the more physical parts of the job almost exclusively.

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    • sudneo@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      There are 2 issues here that are being mixed.

      One is women not being allowed to positions of power. The other is with women being underrepresented in certain fields (e.g., stem).

      The second issue is what I am talking about and I don’t think at all that men “choose” not to try certain careers in the same way women don’t “choose” not to study stem and pursue stem careers. For both, social pressure and expectations, an existing field dominated by the other sex with all its implications are factors of discrimination. Strict gender roles are damaging for both men and women, and this is a perfect example.

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      • grue@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        There are 2 issues here that are being mixed.

        One is women not being allowed to positions of power. The other is with women being underrepresented in certain fields (e.g., stem).

        I think it’s fair to mix them, to an extent, because I think the degree of underrepresentation is often directly proportional to the prestige/pay/power of the field. Both are symptoms of the same underlying issue, which is bigots discounting women’s competency and refusing to entrust them with things of importance.

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    • Fedditor385@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Better paid jobs are usually more risky, competitive and harsh with short deadlines, that why the are paid more than jobs where you can just do your shift and happily go home like daycare or teaching. It happens that men simply naturally want the adrenaline and excitement that comes with the first because they want to prove themselves.

      If you look into history, men where those that went hunting which can be dangerous, while women were those who collected berries and nursed children, not much danger there.

      As a man, I actually thing women are crazy for not wanting to keep being a houswife a thing. It’s like being the CEO of the house. WFH guaranteed, you are the one making plans and deadlines, minimal stress, and you have probably enough spare time to do whatever you want as a hobby on the side (unless you have small children). I truly don’t see the downside, I would thrive in home improvement and gardening…

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      • SpaceShort@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        The extreme depression and anxiety exhibited by women in the 1950s contradicts your claim.

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    • calcopiritus@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      And how are women pushed out of “man jobs”?

      And how are we fixing that?

      Is it bosses that aim to have male coworkers turning down women? How is that different than bosses wanting artificially 50/50 turning down men?

      Is it not being represented in advertising? How is that different than what happens now. Where most advertising displays just women? Or if there is both a man and a woman, the woman is usually centered in the picture or doing a more important/powerful role.

      By “encouraging” women in the workplace, what you see is things being done to men that you complain was done to women.

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  • FloMo@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    positions like nurses or teachers are very female dominated.

    I’m sure it varies from country to country, but in the US women could not study medicine until the late 1800’s and the US Army did not allow female physicians until 1940.

    It’s not unlikely to think we have many people today who were alive before women practicing as physicians was common place.

    I’m convinced it’s less of a matter of a group “dominating” a space but rather being pigeonholed/forced into it due to a lack of options, and these circumstances have impact that are still felt to this day.

    I’m not sure about Italy but in a lot of the US becoming a school teacher requires a college degree and has wages that do not keep up with the cost of living.

    You can look up articles of teachers losing their jobs for doing sex work or provocative modeling to earn extra income because their job does not pay enough.

    Doesn’t seem like that big of a win? Unless I’m missing something?

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    • zaphod@sopuli.xyz ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I’m sure it varies from country to country, but in the US women could not study medicine until the late 1800’s

      In Germany at the moment around two thirds of medicine students are women and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the similar in most western countries.

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      • Jiggle_Physics@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        It’s a little over 50% in the US, and is largely due to women out performing men in school.

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    • sudneo@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Like another comment stated about Germany, even in Italy medicine faculties have a majority of women today as well.

      I agree that in general teacher jobs are not glamorous or high-paying, but it’s still a very important role in society and we can still discuss how it’s a problem that there is an effective (social, mostly) barrier for males accessing (lower level) education jobs.

      I do believe that this is essentially another symptom of a wider problem related to gender roles.

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      • FloMo@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I do believe that this is essentially another symptom of a wider problem related to gender roles.

        Certainly agree with you there and I really appreciate your nuanced take.

        I think many miss the greater overarching message that forcing gender roles only serves to hold us back as a human race.

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