In what way is it?
In what way is Bitcoin not fundamentally a scam? There are multiple interpretations of “Bitcoin is a scam” you can take, and honestly with most of them I think it’s been true the whole time.
Ulrich@feddit.org 4 days ago
miridius@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Decentralised currencies are fundamentally too expensive to operate, while providing dangerously little safety and a far worse user experience than fiat.
The scam part is the idea that any crypto coin is an asset with inherent value, when in fact the price is created entirely by new investment, in other words it’s just a ponzi scheme
JackbyDev@programming.dev 4 days ago
I think you may have misunderstood. I’m saying people call it a scam for a variety of reasons, so when someone says it isn’t a scam, I’m asking which way of calling it a scam are they saying it’s not a scam in relation to.
Ulrich@feddit.org 4 days ago
I’m the way that none of those other ways are fundamental to it’s intended use by it’s creator as an actual currency.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
There are plenty of things that aren’t created by scammers to be scams that people call scams.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 4 days ago
They believe shitcoins = the whole crypto economy
The only thing they know are ERC20 tokens
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
No, I don’t. But I do find it humourous you moderate a community called “how to sell drugs online fast” lol. And I genuinely don’t mean that in some sort of “you’re biased” way, truly.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
Haha yea funny
I like the show and I wanted to have a community for it on Lemmy rather than Reddit
Apart from that, crypto usage increased due to dark net markets so there’s a real link
Honytawk@feddit.nl 3 days ago
The entirety of blockchain is a scam. And especially Bitcoin.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 2 days ago
Not sure what your link is supposed to prove. I could make the exact same site but with problems related to the banking system, and trust me, it would be a lot worse.
JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Bitcoin is not directly a scam. Rather it is a vector for scams. It makes scamming just a bit easier until regulations catch up.
Now, the various meme coins are directly scams. You are guaranteed to lose money buying into them.
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 3 days ago
It’s not a scam. It’s also not immune from valid criticism, but people who call it a scam don’t understand it well enough to make those criticisms.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
I think you’re doing a disservice by saying everyone who calls it a scam doesn’t understand it well enough. It’s not like everyone saying it is a scam are doing it for the same reason. There’s a variety of reasons people have for doing it.
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 3 days ago
People can all have different reasons for a thing and yet all still come to the wrong conclusion. Bitcoin just doesn’t meet the criteria for a scam. It’s one thing to not like or trust it for legitimate reasons. It’s another thing to denounce the thing you don’t like or trust with an invalid accusation.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
What’s the criteria for some something being a scam in your opinion and why do you believe others whose criteria is different from yours don’t have legitimate reasons and make invalid accusations?
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 4 days ago
It would be better to state how it is a scam
Apart from that, well no big company or country profits from it. You’re not paying someone that’s actively trying to fuck you over. You’re not paying to fund a capitalistic villain that wants all the world money. You’re paying for an, at least the original goal was, uncensurable means of payment that’s decentralized and doesn’t rely on a government or a company.
A pseudonymous and trustless way of paying people. Believe in the maths, not a regulated entity that might seize your money at any time.
It’s the cypherpunk’s wet dream and I view it as such.
Most people only view it as investment and “ponzi scheme” because they don’t care about this. They don’t care about not giving too much power to a few individuals and don’t hate banks.
Any country can just print money and make what you have worthless, and it’s often done in poor countries as a way to wipe debts or similar bs. Crypto can shield them against that, which is probably the reason why it’s more used in those kind of countries (or in countries with oppressive governments)
Bitcoin is one of the cleanest cryptos. It’s old, doesn’t work that well, but it’s not owned by anyone and it has a strong identity
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 4 days ago
What putting money into crypto does is empower early bitcoin speculators
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
Your statement is technically true for everything you buy. You make the market price go up, so every owner benefits from it if they intend to sell at some point
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
Right, but definitely not a ponzi scheme. Also, proof of stake is also definitely not a ponzi scheme.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
Low effort troll
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 4 days ago
For example, I mainly hold crypto that I’ll be using for payments, or those I deem technologically interesting.
I’ve already made many crypto payments, know how they pretty much work, and prefer using them than paying by card, because fuck the banking system and those greedy visa/mastercard that takes huge cuts from payments. Also, anonymity benefit: don’t always want my name to be known, for example when donating to an individual or particular cause
boonhet@lemm.ee 4 days ago
I do hope you’re being real careful with your opsec if anonymity is important to you. Generally speaking, more people will know who paid who with crypto compared to bank transfers. Chains like Monero are an exception of course and yes, there are ways to anonymize other wallets too, but it requires a great deal of care, more than I personally trust myself.
You’ve got a valid point for the card payments where there are huge fees the merchant has to pay (nearly 2% for many I think), but bank transfers are infinitely cheaper (free) and instant, compared to paying gas fees and waiting. Obviously this is not true for all banking systems yet, but it’s getting there.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
No worries, you got an XMR fan here. Churning and swapping to remove all leads
My biggest problem with card payments is the fixed fee, which, for small payments, is enormous. When I donate to some content creator, I hate that 30% of what I send is cut into various fees, and that’s even before VAT and tax.
Gas fees are only a thing in some cryptos. BCH, LTC, XMR have nearly non-existent fees.
Wire bank transfers suck big time. Enormous fees when sending to foreign countries, and it’s also super slow.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
I think they didnt say part of their reasoning. Crypto is useful to buy things that are either illegal or not socially acceptable/available in your local area.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 4 days ago
They extra costs of creditcards is why I use a modern bankcard, but the US is really behind on that so for some things I need to use my CC
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
Wdym by “modern bankcard”? And I feel like the USA are pretty good in terms of crypto
JackbyDev@programming.dev 4 days ago
Someone could say crypto “is a scam” in that the proof of work aspect encourages miners to keep adding more hash rate to the network so long as it is profitable to do so and not whether the network actually needs it. It takes crazy amounts of energy for simple transactions.
Someone could say crypto “is a scam” in that proof of stake algorithms (like Ether) is just a plot for the rich to get richer and favor early adopters who have more coins.
Someone could say crypto “is a scam” in that it’s controlled by technology and not laws and can’t be fixed. Someone stealing it is more likely to get away with it because it’s not like a company can just revert fraud.
Someone can say crypto “is a scam” because it doesn’t hold value. Stocks do hold value because you own a portion of that company and if they don’t reinvest their profits you get dividends. Money does hold value because even in the absence of a gold standard we’ve been using it long enough that it’s so ingrained in everything and everyone agrees it has value. Money has value in that the massive amount of financial regulations surrounding it creates a more stable value. Not everyone agrees crypto has value. Crypto is hardly regulated. Crypto wildly fluctuates in price.
Someone could say crypto “is a scam” because it is often used in scams and makes it easier for scammers to be anonymous and lock down funds they steal.
These are all the ways I could think of off the top of my head. I don’t because agree with all of them, and some I think are more valid arguments than others. The last one being the weakest since it feels odd to say scam instead of a trap or something.
MajesticElevator@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
I don’t see how it makes it a scam. But anyways, by definition, a bigger hash rate is always good.
You mean just like stocks, and banks, and real estate, and investing? Doesn’t make it a scam either. Find better algorithms. Crypto works because people use it. If something is better for everyone, it’ll end up gaining traction.
I could see a valid reason in this but when you get into crypto, you know what to expect. I feel like I have been personally scammed by the banking system and PayPal through abusive reversals, which funnily enough, is fraud caused by the anti fraud system. Many people abuse this stuff.
For the crypto value thing. Well yea. Not everyone agrees it has value, but that stands for pretty much everything. You could draw a parallel with art. Most people don’t give a fuck about your black and blue painting that apparently costs millions. People might also not care about a blue spider hat. It doesn’t make it a scam in any way. If people pay, then it has value to them. No one forced them to buy crypto. They’re not a great value store, they’re a risky investment and usage product, just like stocks. It doesn’t make it a scam.
Not a scam but it would be a valid reason to hate it. Cash is the same. Government seizing crypto because it was linked at some point to a scam even though you’re not linked to it is a scam imo.
I’m not really convinced by any of these reasons. They’re valid reason not to like crypto, but none of them makes it a scam.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 days ago
No, stocks, banks, and real estate do not give you more of themselves by mere fact of owning them. Some stocks pay dividends, but you don’t get more stock for owning it, setting something up to buy more with dividends is your own decision. Banks give you interest, but that is not a function of how money works, that’s something the bank does. Owning property does not give you more property over time. None of these are like how a proof of stake algorithm works.
Do I think it makes it a scam? No, not really. Do I think people saying it’s a scam because of that are wildly off base? Fuck no. It’s valid to be concerned about it. Do I think it’s better than proof of work? Yeah, probably. The arms race of increasing hash rate so long as it’s profitable energy wise is pretty nasty.