Sci-fi writer Ursula Leguin wrote a book about an anarcho-syndicalistic society called The Dispossessed. In that book, those who ‘opted out’ of this society were barred from enjoying the fruits of the collective labor but could still live on the outskirts and start their own subsistence farm or whatever. Societal control in that story was basically maintained through personal relationships among the community (shame those who don’t want to contribute) whereas the capitalistic society control method is threaten with death by restricting access to resources (home,food,water,etc). I’m not saying public shaming is the best route, but it’s still more humane than work or die.
Comment on How would you run a society?
Kookie215@lemmy.world 1 day agoThis works if everyone is willing to put in the effort to contribute, how do you handle those who are not willing or able to do so? I feel like everyone is probably able to make meaningful contributions to a society in one way or the other, but what about those that just don’t wanna? Do you think the number would be high? I’m not sure.
brendansimms@lemmy.world 1 day ago
libra00@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Why do you imagine people wouldn’t contribute? People aren’t only motivated by money - unless I’ve somehow been missing out on getting paid for doing the dishes, cleaning up trash at the park, or helping my friends and neighbors out this whole time. People are so programmed by capitalism to stop any idea that comes into their head that might challenge the status quo and apply the ‘rugged individualism’ bullshit to it until they figure out how it couldn’t possibly work, while failing to realize that humans worked together for thousands of years before capitalism came along and taught us all that we should be thinking of ourselves first, last, and only.
But also you missed something important here, in the first two words:
What contribution do you imagine is required if automation can meet everyone’s needs? This isn’t the real world, we’ve got goddamned aliens in space ships flying around, there’s no reason to believe someone with that level of technology couldn’t automate away literally everything. And even if that wasn’t the case, the point of the bit I said about education was explicitly to deprogram people who are still hung up on capitalism’s ‘fuck you I got mine’ attitude, if that’s required (the prompt said nothing about where these people come from, what their preconceived notions are, etc, so I was covering all bases.)
Kookie215@lemmy.world 1 day ago
We definitely have aliens in spaceships flying around in the real world.
Also I don’t doubt that technology can evolve well past anything we know because you would start pretty close to where we are now, but you don’t get magic powers you still have to have scientist and tech bros figuring shit out and inventing new shit and YOU have to teach at least the first few generations how to do that. You’re not just snapping whatever you want into existence, and the aliens are not helping you. I don’t doubt you can get to “Fully automated luxury gay space communism for everyone!” over 1,000 years, but someone somewhere is gonna have to put some effort into it.
Why do I assume people wouldn’t contribute? It seems reasonable that at least some people will want to smoke weed instead of building houses, but idk! I literally said that I wasn’t sure and asked what the solution was because this is fun little prompt that I am curious about and want to hear everyone’s different perspectives on. I think that asking follow up questions is kinda reasonable.
libra00@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I, uh… we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that one, chief.
But the aliens have already invented all that shit, so it seems like a real dick move to not let us use it. Especially since if we have to reinvent technology from the ground up all over again there’s a whoooole lot of people who are going to die that wouldn’t have had to otherwise, so that’s trending into ‘if god exists he’s a fucking asshole for allowing people to suffer needlessly’ territory. I’m gonna assume they’re helpful aliens, cause otherwise I’d have to pause my experiment to tell them just exactly what I think of them, but with guns instead of a few impolite words.
That’s fair. If everyone’s needs are taken care of then there’s no requirement to contribute at all. Sit on the couch and smoke weed if that’s what makes you happy. But having done that for a few years I have to say I found it hard to not get up and do something useful on occasion. In the scenario where everything isn’t fully automated? Well, if you don’t care about your community and don’t want to make your/their lives better, why are you a part of it? Maybe you’d be happier somewhere else. Life (currently) requires effort to sustain, if you aren’t willing to put in that effort then it seems like you’re probably not terribly interested in continuing to live, so maybe there’s a conversation to be had about that.
notabot@lemm.ee 1 day ago
This is an interesting prompt. Critically it seems like you definitely aren’t omnipotent, so whilst you can try to influence and teach the new inhabitants, there’s nothing stopping them simply ignoring you and doing something else.
Rather than some wanting to just not contribute, I’d be more concerned by a group deciding to focus their efforts on building weapons and simply taking what they want from others.
Fully automated luxury gay space communism is certainly an ideal, but it is extremely vulnerable to hostile forces until it gets large enough and willing enough to excert eqivalent force in return. Hostile forces can be military, ideological, or resource limit based. Responding to all of those, is a massive challenge.
edgemaster72@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Based on this part
I wouldn’t have anything to “contribute” as I wouldn’t consider myself passionate about anything. All I would do is consume media if all my other needs were met.
libra00@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Passion isn’t something you either have or you don’t, it’s something you develop by being curious about the world, by seeing a need that you could fulfill and wanting to feel useful, etc. Sitting on the couch all day is not the way to develop your passion (take it from someone who has done it). Find something you care about, find a way to help make it better. But, if everyone’s needs are met by automation I see no reason you couldn’t be a giant couch potato if that’s all you want out of life, because no contribution is required of anyone at that point. I’m not here to judge.
edgemaster72@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Yeah I don’t have any of that curiosity, ability to fulfill needs, things to care about or make better either.