more countries need to start banning large commercial American and Chinese social networks.
Why? Don’t we live in a free society?
Comment on "It's Silencing" - Albania Shuts Down TikTok.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Can’t speak for Albanian internal politics (I will speculate the incumbent administration is almost certainly likely to use to their own benefit), but more countries need to start banning large commercial American and Chinese social networks.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
This is lemmy, people hate China, America and commercial social media. Not a big fan of any of those three either so yeah, fuck em. Would be better if we banned all commercial social media but I’m not gonna cry over only some of them getting banned.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
This might be nonsense to you, but it’s possible that I have much more experience with what we are discussing than you do.
See the following reply in this thread:
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
I strongly disagree.
That said, I think more countries should be releasing research about large social networks and recommending its citizens avoid them. The role of government isn’t to force its people to be better off, but enforce the laws the people want. A social media service should only be banned if it’s violating the laws and unwilling to comply, but otherwise the role of government should remain an advisory one.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I would argue your approach is narrow both in terms of pragmatic realities and broad social changes in the information age.
I mentioned earlier in this thread how I am from Ukraine and how I of course support our government banning russian social media and internet services in 2014. It’s good to talk about “government not forcing people to be better of” and so on, but when your family is forced to leave their city and sell their homes at 10% of market value due to an invasion from a large, aggressive and genocidal neighbour (that uses langauge as a key element of their imperialist policies), you start taking a more sober look at such matters. Mind you, I am talking about Donbas in 2014, not the full scale invasion in 22.
Not saying you’re American, but I would often hear similar polemics when I lived in the US; didn’t find them in the least convincing. It was clear that supporters of such polemics never really encountered any difficult situations that would test their commitment (and understanding) of their claimed beliefs. Some life experience outside of Ukraine (i.e. unrelated to invasions) also contributed to this perspective. Unfortunately, it’s not a black and white type topic as far as I am concerned.
The above mentioned points refer to real world examples. I would argue there are also more abstract arguments for my point of view.
We are currently going through massive social change due to the development of information and communication technology. We don’t yet know what the best practices are with respect to managing the externalities of the modern ICT landscape.
In 1890, much of the world was still ruled by kings and emperors. In many cases they were positioned literally as god’s messengers to humanity. In retrospect, it was clear that the imperial/colonialist model was not going to survive contact with modernity (industrialization, commoners learning to read, rise of easily accessible political messaging) and that new models had to take their place.
One could argue that the same is true of current attitudes towards information technology. It’s possible that the drivers that led to rapid ICT growth (e.g. US service providers not being responsible for the content on their platforms) also resulted in certain social externalities that at the end of the day will need to be accounted for (one example would be FB’s callousness and contribution to the Rohingya genocide).
I am not arguing for Chinese-style total control of the internet, but perhaps the optimal approach lies somewhere in the middle between US-style “no responsibility for anything” approach and excessive Chinese governmental paternalism.
Just some thoughts, I know I come off as condescending, but it is honestly not my intention.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Not saying you’re American
I am, just for context and because I’ll reference US policy in my reply.
I know I come off as condescending
And if I do, please know that is not my intention at all either. That said, let’s get into it.
Let’s look at surveillance for a second. Here’s how things unfolded here in the US:
- surveil enemies of the state only, and only outside the country
- surveil enemies of the state, even if they’re in our country; collect data for everyone, but only look at it when needed (this is what Snowdon called out)
- expand surveillance to criminals, like gangs and drug smugglers
- expand surveillance to those coming in at the border
- expand surveillance of regular citizens, in case they’re compromised
- prosecute “thought crimes” and go full big brother
We’re currently somewhere around 4 or 5, but we were at step 1 just 20-ish years ago (expanded to 2 w/ the Patriot Act in response to 9/11).
If you give the government a new power, they will abuse it, it’s just a matter of time.
Trump is basically using TikTok as a bargaining chip and a threat to other social media orgs to shift public opinion in his favor. That’s absolutely terrible, and that was started by the Biden administration banning TikTok on national security grounds. Banning TikTok opened the floodgates for politicians to coerce social media orgs in new ways, many of which happens behind closed doors (see what happened to TikTok? That could be you if you don’t bend the knee.).
I am not arguing for Chinese-style total control of the internet
My perspective is that you effectively are. Maybe you don’t want that, but the policies you seem to support will eventually become that, because the government perpetually expands the scope of whatever powers we grant it.
I understand the need for certain policy changes during wartime. When Russia started its aggressions (arguably, long before Crimea), I can understand a temporary ban on Russian propaganda, because it’s an active war. Maybe it doesn’t include fighting yet, but it does have a credible threat of devolving into that. So I support temporary restrictions while an imminent, credible threat exists or the country is currently at war.
However, banning TikTok isn’t that. Russia doesn’t control TikTok, and even if we assume China directly controls it (probably closer to reality than not), Albania is not at risk of being invaded by China, so there’s no imminent, credible threat. Likewise for the US, we’re not at risk of being invaded by China, so there’s no imminent, credible threat there. What does exist is political convenience, if you can control what social media services are allowed in your country, you can coerce those social media orgs to filter out stuff you don’t like and promote stuff you do. That’s a massive conflict of interest for the sanctity of free speech.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If you give the government a new power, they will abuse it, it’s just a matter of time. … because the government perpetually expands the scope of whatever powers we grant it.
I don’t believe in treating the government as a black box. If what you’re saying is true, then that’s a reflection of society. You want a government that has the capability to implement surveillance and ban social networks when the situation calls for it. In the global context, there will be such situations. And you need to have a political and social system that limits such powers when they are not needed anymore.
A specific individual or a group of individuals cannot independently collaborate to implement counter intelligence policies to identify traitors who are providing location data for missile strikes and helping kill your fellow citizens who are fighting for your safety on the front-lines. The government must have deep surveillance capabilities in such a situation.
It’s the personal responsibility of every citizen to contribute to a functioning government system. If it doesn’t function well, that’s on the individuals that make up society. Blanket bans on government surveillance or control external social media is not a viable approach in our world (not just in Ukraine).
In the US context (I’ve lived there, but I am of course more knowledgeable on Eastern Europe), I would argue that continued renewal of the Patriot act (if it even was needed initially, but one can argue after 9/11 there was a period of shock and fear for Americans) is a reflection of the failures of the US political system. Specifically the lack of competitive elections beyond two parties. This is on some level the responsibility of US citizens and not a “black box” model of government.
I understand the need for certain policy changes during wartime. When Russia started its aggressions (arguably, long before Crimea), I can understand a temporary ban on Russian propaganda, because it’s an active war. Maybe it doesn’t include fighting yet, but it does have a credible threat of devolving into that. So I support temporary restrictions while an imminent, credible threat exists or the country is currently at war.
It’s not that simple though. One could frame pre-invasion (i.e. pre Feb 2014 when they invaded Crimea) restrictions on russian social media and services as government overreach. On the other hand, one could frame it as a forward looking government initiative attempting to protect the lives of its citizens. We currently have the benefit of hindsight, so it’s easy to see which approach is correct, but that’s not the case in the moment.
As I mentioned in my OP, I don’t know much about Albanian politics. What I do know is that you don’t need an imminent threat of a physical invasion to limit the influence of much larger countries on your political environment. I do not support having local politics being subject to unaccountable (see Facebook and Rohingya genocide), callous operators; doesn’t matter if they are based in the US or China.
I am not that knowledge on China, but I do know how russia operates. Similar to what you mentioned, I think TikTok operates much closer to the VK/Odnoklassniki models used by the russians. You don’t want the CCP promoting political movements that they have bribed or see as being more beneficial to their interests. You want politics and political messaging to be accountable to the people who live in your country. I will point out that pre-invasion (2014), the russians very much used soft power from their internet services/social media/TV channels to influence politics within Ukraine. That’s unacceptable and has lead to large scale deaths, destruction and misery.
Perhaps dealing with an invasion for a decade plus made me a bit paranoid, but I do support the government being able to regulate the ability of foreign social media/services to influence local politics and spread misinformation and propaganda.
As I mentioned earlier, it’s not all black and white. There are legitimate cases (even without an imminent invasion) where you need to have a measure of control over foreign influence, be it American-style Zuckerburg enabling genocide in Mynmar or Chinese influence campaigns. I don’t see this as being supportive of a Chinese-style total censorship model.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Just commercial social networks, any country , period.
huppakee@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
But preferably not 2 months before the election
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Depends how you look at it. If enemy states are actively leveraging their social networks to undermine democracy in your country, 2 months before the election may be the perfect time to ban US/Chinese commercial social networks.
huppakee@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
In that case you could argue that it is the perfect time, but that is not happening in this case. The current government sees this particular medium as a threat because of the users on it, not because of the owners.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
That’s fair.
I was just trying to point that American attitudes (theatrical polemics claiming some sort allegiance to free speech) around social networks are not always applicable or desirable.
In my own country, Ukraine, we banned all Russian social networks and internet services in 2014 after they invaded. This is a reasonable action.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
Thats exactly when you should do it tho…
huppakee@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
I don’t think you understand the quote you use. What is in the article and in your quote of the article is thataccording to the opposition (and others) the current government is banning TikTok to silence critics and manipulate the upcoming elections.
Then you mention how TikTok is being used to manipulatie elections … on a global scale. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but in this case the banning of a social media platform is similar to how governments suppress newspapers and tv-channels because they are a threat to the ruling party.
This is not about foreign agents influencing elections, this is about a local power suppressing their people.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
I understand that their motivation is to suppress opposition. What im saying is that banning tiktok wont have that effect, but the opposite. Im saying the opposition will actually benefit from moving to a different, more neutral platform in response to this ban.