Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days agoWhy would that be the implication? There’s nothing in that statement that suggests it would be the case, calling it “obvious” doesn’t make it so.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
The equivalent action of Russia interfering with the West’s population is obviously the West’s population interfering with the Russian population. If you want to say you were implying US interference in the US population, sure, then you could’ve made that clearer. Nothing changes though because we still don’t control information or punish opposing views internally as they do, obviously.
But feel free to send as much evidence of western bot farms as I can easily send of Russian ones.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
But the group of people we were talking about about being influenced was Americans, so it would be fairly natural to assume that I was talking about them influencing our own population, or that I was leaving it ambiguous. If you wanted to jump to the conclusion otherwise, you should’ve clarified.
I have no idea why were’re limiting “propaganda” to “bot farms” which aren’t a particularly effective form of it. Every US media outlet has a vested interest in falling in line behind what the president wants because otherwise they could be refused access to things like press briefings, something Trump is especially blatant about. The US media was fully supportive of the Iraq war and published countless lies promoting it, the NYT made up a story about “mass rapes” claimed to be conducted by Palestinians to justify the government’s support for the war, going back further, into periods where we have access to declassified stuff, the US government literally had a mind control program called MK Ultra specifically about trying to brainwash people.
Of course, it has also conducted misinformation campaigns in other countries. Recently, the US government was spreading COVID/vaccine disinformation in the Philippines. During the Iranian coup that ousted democratic leader Mohammad Mossadegh in favor of a right-wing dictator, the CIA admitted that it had taken control of virtually every newspaper and media outlet in the country, used to manufacture discontent. If they can stuff like overseas, then they can do it at home too.
Furthermore, these intelligence agencies have interests that are more directly contrary to the American people than the Russian government does. They represent the interests of the rich, and the US rich are the most direct and primary enemy of the US poor. And yet, I never hear any libs express even the slightest ounce of concern that the most well funded intelligence network in the world, with an atrocious historical record showing that they have both the means and motive to suppress democracy, might be something to be concerned about. We should only worry about a less well-funded, less connected intelligence community with less directly opposed interests.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
If your statements are ambiguous then, don’t be surprise if people pick one of the more obvious possible meanings. I’m not the one who has to clarify your statements. Regardless, nothing changes. Russian influences both their domestic and western populations more than the West influences their domestic or Russian populations. The West has freedom of information flows the likes of which the Russians have never known in their whole useless, pillaging, and degenerate existence. Even under clowns like Trump, the US press is more free than Russia’s.
I wouldn’t use the trash that Trump pulls as valid examples of how the West acts, US leaders don’t typically threaten allies with takeover or bend over to Russia. He’s indisputably an anti-western piece of shit that falls into the same bucket as Putin. Other than that, try no to fetch US examples from the cold war as valid comparisons to contemporary actors like Putin, otherwise it just seems like you’re stretching. It’s been generations, expectations of international behavior aren’t the same.
Really? Russian kleptocracy aligns more with it’s population and doesn’t represent the interests of the rich? The country that still lacks indoor plumbing for ~20% of the population? Good one.
Because they’re destroying democracies in your region. “less directly opposed interests”? only if you’re a vatnik lmao. If you are though, feel free to buy the first ticket to Moscovia.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
God, you really can’t stop injecting this hyper-partisan moralizing. Every point you raised here is about morality which I wasn’t talking about at all.
Which again raises the question of why Russian propaganda is so much more effective in the Western media environment where they can’t censor things or control shit than Western propaganda is. See, you’re distracted by saying, “Russia is the bad guy” that you’re losing sight of the actual question.
No present or historical examples then, got it.
When did the US reform and change it’s ways? Did a president stand up to the CIA and tell them to cut it out? Which one, when? Was anyone in the intelligence community held accountable for their actions and actually punished? Who, when?
Or did the US stop doing evil stuff right around the window of time where documents would not yet be declassified?
Putting aside all of that, even if I accepted your absurd constraints, I also raised points that fit your criteria, regarding the war in Iraq. Things that track with a consistent pattern of behavior before and after.
I never said anything like that. What I said is that Russian kleptocracy is less directly opposed to the interests of the American people than the US kleptocracy is. The Russian oligarchs don’t suppress our wages, bust our unions, and gouge our prices, not because there’s any kind of moral difference but because they’re not in a position to do so. The American oligarchs are the ones with both the means and motive to hurt the American people, they are, therefore, the primary enemy of the people, moreso than Russian oligarchs are to us.
In “my region?” My region is about as far away from Ukraine as it’s possible to be on planet Earth.