Comment on Trump halts all military aid to Ukraine after White House clash with Zelensky

• sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  None of what you mentioned has anything to do with freedom. Freedom isn’t defined by what you can do, it’s defined by what you can’t do. If they capitulate to Russia, they’ll permanently lose essential freedoms.

  Yes, the situation is bad, I get that, but it should be the Ukrainian people who decide when to tap out. Russia will keep harassing them, and they will never be safe without strong allies.

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  • bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    None of what you mentioned has anything to do with freedom.

    What? Being able to move freely has nothing to do with freedom? Not being kidnapped and forced into the meatgrinder has nothing to do with freedom? Being able to vote for your representatives has nothing to do with freedom? So, a person who cannot do any of the is free in your opinion? I guess we have a veri different definition of freedoms then.

    If they capitulate to Russia, they’ll permanently lose essential freedoms.

    So, how do I sign up to lose the “freedoms” I’ve described above?

    should be the Ukrainian people who decide when to tap out.

    But we can’t. Only Trump and Putin support us having a vote, everybody else prefers we have no say.

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    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Everything you mentioned is due to the war. If we roll back the clock to before the war, which country was more free? If the war ends today, which country is likely to be more free?

      I think Ukraine wins in both (esp if we remove issues due to Russian bullying). It wasn’t some paradise of freedom or anything, but they had a lot more voice in their government.

      Only Trump and Putin support us having a vote

      Neither do, they both want concessions. Trump seems to want resources, and Putin wants land and no NATO expansion. Neither wants what’s best for Ukrainians, they want spoils of war.

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      • bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        Neither do, they both want concessions. Trump seems to want resources, and Putin wants land and no NATO expansion. Neither wants what’s best for Ukrainians, they want spoils of war.

        They both want there to be elections in Ukraine so that we can vote. Zelensky (with support from Europe and preciously) wants to continue being a dictator without elections.
        Zelensky will not stop the war until the very last of is dead.
        So don’t matter how bad Trump’s deal will be, no matter how much concessions will be given to Putin, it’s still better than continuation of Zelensky’s regime (and war as a direct consequence).

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• Spacehooks@reddthat.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Or offer to give Ukraine 2 nukes if Zelensky steps down.

  Or help Ukraine join a bigger organization that can help them. offer them statehood like Canada.

  Better yet invade Russia right now. They can’t even take Ukraine. That will end the war.

  but no let’s stop them from getting weapons over minerals rights and offer no alternatives. So Russia keeps everything and more Ukraine lives are lost over something they didn’t choose. Russia is not known for forgiving population that gave them trouble. Just look at east Berlin.

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  • bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    give them nukes / start WW3

    That’s a very good idea, but only as long as only people supporting this are going to die. So, you know, you but not me.

    more Ukraine lives are lost over something they didn’t choose.

    So let’s stop the war so that lives are not lost.

    Russia is not known for forgiving population that gave them trouble. Just look at east Berlin.

    Are you trying to tell me that people on liberated territories have it worse than people on Zelensky controlled territories? That’s absolutely incorrect. People on liberated territories are free and can leave at any moment. People on Zelensky’s controlled territories can’t.

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    • Spacehooks@reddthat.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      WW3? who’s supporting Russia? A country that can barely support a war effort with increasing the age recalling vets, up aged of conscription to 30, and using prisoners to fight battles. This whole thing started because Ukraine gave up the nukes they had in 1994 for protection that they didn’t get. America is was them what is agreeded upon. Russia is not. If you can’t honor a deal then give back the nukes.

      We both agree on stopping the war but bend over to appease the aggressor is not the answer. That didn’t work with Hitler either.

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      • bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        WW3?

        So what in your opinion is going to happen if NATO/USA invades Russia? They will just give up and not nuke the shit out of NATO/USA?..

        We both agree on stopping the war but bend over to appease the aggressor is not the answer.

        Well, it doesn’t look to me like that…
        “End the war now by signing a peace deal” and “end the war that has been going on for three years where one side has been almost constantly losing more and more ground by trying to make that side win the war and return all lost land” are almost the exact opposite opinions if anything…

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