Comment on Here's a hot take about Sekiro
Phunter@lemm.ee 1 week ago
Preface: I have played through DS1 multiple times, DS 3 multiple times, Elden Ring multiple times, and Sekiro twice. I love all these games to bits. I tried DeS, and while I found it fascinating, I came upon it too late and did not feel like proceeding as I have been spoiled by later titles.
Sekiro is beloved due to its very tight design. It asks the player to excel at a handful of specific skills rather than presenting a wide array of options and going “well some of this ought to work for you if combined correctly”. Is either approach better than the other? Subjective. But it’s easy to see why one or the other could appeal more or less to individuals.
That being said, with a narrower band of skills to sharpen comes more constrained encounters. Sekiro is (chiefly) a game about one-on-one combat where nearly every attack can be deflected. “Parry” really is the wrong word for the primary defensive option in Sekiro. Even attacks that are telegraphed with the big red “watch out!” warning actually CAN be deflected (though perhaps you’d be a fool to try). The game is clearly trying to get the player into the groove of trading strikes. You attack until sparks fly, the enemy disengages, or winds up an attack unhindered by your strikes. Then you are met with the defensive challenge: here is one or more attacks with different timings and potential responses. It is now up to the player to answer with whatever they feel is most effective. This may be deflect, block, dodge, jump, mikiri counter, consumable item, or shinobi prosthetic tool. You may find more than one answer fits and therein lies the player’s ability to be creative.
I would argue being creative within a more limited set of constraints does not necessarily diminish the quality of satisfaction one could experience. Being able to master - or at minimum become proficient with - a difficult set of skills despite constraints could even be argued to be far more satisfying as there is less opportunity to find some cheese in the massive toolbox that you would otherwise have access to. And it’s not like the toolbox you have in Sekiro is as small as some detractors seem to think. However, it is much smaller and focused than other titles… especially Elden Ring.
And this is me only talking about the combat. All the other aspects of the game are very well designed too, but I’ve said enough. Also, critics tend to focus on the combat anyway.
That is a very comprehensive and well articulated response. I enjoyed the game for what it was and I appreciate the response it got which set the foundation for the success of Elden Ring.
With that said, I still strongly believe that DMC5 got robbed that year for the attention it deserved. Personally, I believe DMC5 did everything Sekiro was doing better. From combat, characters to enemy and level design.
CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Appreciate the detailed response. I think there are merits to what you’re saying about the combat being very tight but it’s extremely demanding of the player on those specific skills and that’s exactly what I find incredibly boring about it actually.
Sekiro is at its best for me when there are sparks flying and I’m fending off a flurry of blades left and right, getting those perfect timings and sussing out the beat to which the enemy is coming at me with. Even some of the regular enemies do a great job at showcasing what’s possible with the system.
But then I hit the second Owl fight. In this fight you are fending off attacks that it does not matter if you fend off or not. You will spend minutes fending off attacks for a one or two hit window to chip at damage. You will do this over and over again for 15 minutes. It’s boring. And if you get clipped by a hitbox or dodge at the wrong time, instant death. It makes all of the flaws of the game including the camera and lock on system just come out in full force.
Let me put it this way: I feel like a speed runner trying to execute what I know are the exact right moves over and over again for 10-15 minutes without making minor mistakes. As opposed to other souls games where the combat would ebb and flow, this game is one speed and you must approach enemies a few ways at most. That’s the part that gets boring is that I can’t go in going “I’m going to try to dodge this differently” and instead I’m going back in thinking “I sure hope I hit jump at this one part faster” or “don’t miss that one parry or you die” or “how do I avoid that broken hitbox?”
Specifically I had to take a break after fighting the fire demon and seeing it about to charge forward so I dodge behind it, only to die from it charging away from me despite have multiple feet of distance between us. This isn’t the first fight this type of thing has happened in either. The sumo dude in the memory is pretty bad for this as well.
Have you ever noticed that about these games? Maybe I’m off base but I feel like FromSoft is almost like Bethesda in the way that they have some rough edges to a game demanding perfection from you but a lot of people just say it adds to the difficulty or that it’s expected. It’s not massive issues but I’ve lost many fights in this game to stuff that wasn’t my fault at all.
Phunter@lemm.ee 1 week ago
I experienced few bugs in Sekiro, so I can’t comment on that. The buggiest/jankiest experience I’ve had with a From game was DS1 and that stuff did frustrate me to no end.
The difficulty spikes you speak of for Owl 2 and Demon of Hatred are kind of the point (you didn’t mention it, but Butterfly 2 as well). Those are optional story-focused bosses where everything is cranked up to 11. They are “challenge mode” encounters. This applies to Demon of Hatred especially. It’s basically a DS boss in Sekiro. The boss mechanics and combat mechanics clash with dissonance. It makes it challenging, but in a rather frustrating way because few other encounters are like it (maybe headless to a small degree?). You’re basically taking a test for a subject you didn’t get to study for so you have to learn on the job. It is definitely the fight that took the most attempts by a wide margin. Conversely, the final boss is the opposite: the culmination of all the things you’ve been taught put on dazzling display. It’s your final “performance” if you will.
None of this is to say the skill ask of the player is not demanding, because it is. The patterns required to respond during enemy aggression is different than a Soulslike, but I think it’s still in the same neighborhood. “When the enemy/boss does X, I do Y”, the difference being in Sekiro the strings of X and Y are much faster and there’s far more of them. If you don’t like that variation on the theme, well then that’s it… You don’t like it! There’s nothing wrong with not liking something. And I know some players describe an event while muddling through where something “clicks” and they suddenly “get it” and then enjoy it far more (this applies to all From games). But it’s possible Souls games will click for you and Sekiro simply will not.
CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I wouldn’t say it’s really bugs I experienced, the game just seems to play fast and loose with its hitboxes at times. Some of it is fine and it’s a game that needs to be playable so I understand but I think most souls players have had the experience of being hit by a weapon whose speed is nearly zero at the end of a swing but still does full damage, it’s just how the games have always been from what I can tell.
That and being hit because I’m too close to an enemy so the cylinder hitbox around their sword clips me, that happens. Or being hit while behind or beside an enemy happens sometimes. Just frustrating in this game more than most because when those confusing hits do happen, they do massive damage that is harder to recover than it would be in a souls game.
Also very good to hear the final boss is what I’m working toward. I know Owl 2 is optional but I wanted to push myself. I’m fine with the difficulty but the fight was pretty silly and grindy. Just highlighted some of the issues I had with other enemies but I’m not judging the whole game on either that or the demon.
And yes you’re spot on about the demon lol. My thoughts exactly were that it seems just ported from another game and utilizes few of the mechanics I’ve been honing my skills at.
I did think it was the final boss though so hearing people talk about how the actual final boss is better is giving me hope. The souls games are at their peak when you finish a final boss and feel like a Karate kid moment where the wax on wax off of the systems are showing their merit of teaching you to master them. Looking forward to it and thanks for your input