Hang on now. Fascists are historically the “third position” (which is why both the left and the right got together in about 1933 to stomp their collective shit in.) They’re neither “right” nor “left.”
Comment on Lemmy's gaining popularity, so I thought new people should see this.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days agoWhen I say Leftist, I am using the typical definition, anti-Capitalist. Socialism, Communism, Syndicalism, Anarchism, and all their myriad forms.
When I say right, I am using the typical definition, supportive of Capitalism. Social Democrats, Liberals, American Libertarians, fascists, and all their myriad forms.
Considering Lemmy is an international site, it doesn’t make sense to use the Overton Window. If we went by, say, the American Overton Window, but another user lived in, say, Spain, there’s a significant difference there. That’s why I am using the standard definitions, and not going off of any one country’s Overton Window.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Fascism is described as both “Capitalism in decay” and as “Imperialism turned inward.” It served and serves the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat, and historically arises when the Petite Bourgeoisie is facing proletarianization. That’s why the most violently MAGA are small business owners and the like, and why they think immigrants are the ones proletarianizing them.
I highly recommend reading the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds by Dr. Michael Parenti, which covers the material conditions surrounding fascism and who it served.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
Fascism has been described as a teacher telling a student to shut up in class too, just because someone says something doesn’t make it true.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Sure, so can you explain what you disagree with about what I have said, and why you believe fascism to not be left nor right? I am aware of “Third Positionists,” they serve Capitalists and arise from Capitalist decay.
Objection@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
Fascists paint themselves as being a third position that supercedes the left-right dichotomy, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually true. Everything about it is right-wing and it’s not actually as incompatible with capitalism as fascists claim. Every fascist regime has partnered up with capitalists, who often support them into power in the first place.
taipan@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Since you linked to another Wikipedia article, you should know that Wikipedia defines fascism as far-right:
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
And it also defines it as third position, as per the article I linked earlier. Again, some define fascism as “mommy said I can’t go to the party” so oooooohhhhh.
Fact of the matter is fascists, if you’ve ever talked to a real one, are neither capitalist nor communist (again, hence that whole “World War Two” fiasco they teamed up for.) Thus “third position.”
taipan@lemmy.world 1 day ago
No, the article you linked says “The Third Position is a set of neo-fascist political ideologies”. It does not say that fascism in general is neither left or right.
JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 2 days ago
For two of the words this is not a typical definition. Social democrats do not code as “right” anywhere in the world. And liberals are only “right” when viewed through a partisan US-progressive lens, or else perhaps in southern Europe (where the word is mostly an economic term). Elsewhere they would be closer to left or center. This whole discussion illustrates the limited usefulness of the left-right axis at describing ideas.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Are you trying to say that wherever Social Democrats are found, they are the most left available? That may track, but again, Social Democrats want to “harness Capitalism,” it isn’t pro-Socialism nor anti-Capitalism, hence my categorization.
Liberalism is the ideological framework for Capitalism, this is, again, supportive of Capitalism and against Socialism.
JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 2 days ago
This is a bit reductive. I accept that liberalism and capitalism are closely intertwined in the historical reading. But the fact is that capitalism won the economic battle, for better and (I agree) for worse. Attempts to replace it completely, in an interconnected world, invariably end in disaster or (China) in a reversion to capitalism. Just look at the list of them. To me this whole question feels like a disconnected high-school philosophy debate.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
I don’t think this is a good place to have this convo, but I firmly disagree with what you’ve said here. I understand if you don’t want to, but if you want to discuss this further you can shoot me a DM.
poVoq@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
Except in Portugal, where the conservative party calls themselves Social Democrats.
JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 2 days ago
True but that is a proper name, not the generic definition. Russia’s Liberal Democrats are ultranationalists.