Comment on Norway is mulling building a fence on its border with Russia, following Finland's example

• red@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Here’s something for you to think about when making these silly drive over the fence remarks:

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  • sonori@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Neglecting the silliness of assuming that we were talking about where the road crosses the border, or alternatively showing a map where the Russian road parallels the border for sections and meaning it to show that no vehicle could even drive near to the border, surely what you said about the guards always knowing when someone is coming from kilometers away and being ready to meet them makes the case for a fence over the whole length worse, as it is evidently is and has not been needed for that purpose?

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    • red@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      The point of mentioning the road crossing points were that those places are reinforced, and yeah, it’s silliness to attempt it there, leaving no possible places to take a truck over the border due difficulty terrain - we’re talking about migrants here, not soldiers.

      They aren’t using vehicles, the russians provided migrants bicycles to get to the crossing points when they had the “flood our border with immigrants” operation active some months ago.

      That leaves us with one large issue to cover: people traversing the foresty areas by foor, attempting to slip in undetected. That’s where the fence comes in - they can obviously get over it, but it’s a slowing measure. The fence also contains alarm systems and surveillance, so that our border patrol can then pinpoint where they are needed ASAP.

      The border patrol people themselves wanted this, and it’s been working well.

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      • sonori@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        I thought you just said the issue the government needed to solve was random people wandering across the border without realizing it. People crossing or being trafficked across Russia in an attempt to exercise their right as a human being under article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, an agreement specifically drafted with the goal of facilitating large movements of persecuted people in the wake of nations turning away people fleeing the Holocaust, well those people are trying to find and be collected by the border agents, so why would a fence change anything about the number of them trying to get out of a dangerous foreign nation?

        I mean it’s not like Norway would be trying to discourage them from holding it to the obligations the nation signed and agreed to that require it to thoughtfully and thoughly analyze each of their claims in court, now would it? I mean if they don’t have even proper shoes, Norway is of course going to spare no expense in welcoming as many of them as show up as quickly as possible, right?

        It apparently has all this extra money to spend on a changing a border system that is currently working very well in your own words.

        Also, you realize we are talking about a press release about the Norwegian government considering future fencing of more of the Russian-Norwegian border, and not the system as it exists currently, right?

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      • sonori@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        [deleted]

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    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      How would the fence be worse?

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• Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  “How does making things harder help at all”. Gee, I wonder.

  You’re still relying on guards actually responding and getting out to meet them,

  Well obviously, but now you also have a barrier to slow them down so those guards have more time to get there and make sure less people manage to get through. Again, the fence isn’t supposed to work alone but to compliment the other ways of stopping them/slowing them. You’re talking as if they’ve scrapped the border guards in favour of this instead of using this to make their work easier.

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  • sonori@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Again fences are like cheap locks, they are creating a social barrier to tell people not to pass, not a way of significantly reducing the speed at which someone who wants to will take in doing so.

    How many seconds do you think it takes a truck to drive through one, or prop a ladder up against one? What else, like anything else, could be built or funded with the cost of building these expensive signs?

    If your going to spend massive amounts of money on securing a border, at least spend it on the things that actually have an impact, like more patrols and guard posts, not on expensive signposting.

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    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      Norwegian, Finnish and Polish border forces seem to disagree with your estimate on border fences and seem to think as them as valuable tools. Those are the ones who have had to deal with this migrant issue.

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      • sonori@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Is it the people actually studying effectiveness of preventing security threats from crossing borders, or the politicians and leaders who want to be seen as doing something visible to deal with the ‘migrant issue’ dispite the pure absurdity of suggesting that people who crossed continents will see a fence and just decide to stay illegally in Russia of all places?

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