The Taiwanese were not born gods of semiconductors. They were one of the very first places we massively exported things to like Mexico. They were trained and educated over decades to get where they are now. Even if that was the issue it’s nothing that couldn’t be solved by education.
Most of that is conflation of Taiwan with China (and let’s not do that) as well as mixing up TSMC with a random Shenzhen factory. Taiwan is definitely fucked, but it is more “America fucked” than “996 fucked”, as it were.
And it is important to understand that TSMC are basically the best of the best in semiconductors. That is skilled labor. I wouldn’t want to work there but if I had to pick a semiconductor factory to work in…
No, the reason that the vast majority of “popular science” tech youtubers have not covered this too much is that it is really a mixture of
- Wages: Yes, the wages are not as high as American workers want. And a lot of that is because these ARE factory jobs. But people expect “tech company” salaries. And there will be a few roles that get that but most are more about implementing a design rather than building their own process.
- Work hours: Yeah. There are going to be “crunch” expectations. But likely less so than most “tech” jobs in this country
- Skill. Like it or not, Taiwan are the gods of semiconductors and the processes associated with them. We do not have that skillset.
So 1 and 2… should be valid but This Is America. But 3 is the real issue. Because we have people who are insisting on getting full salaries while more or less needing to be trained (often for a few years) on the job to be qualified. Versus flying out the people who DO know their shit. Like, we all like to complain that outsourcing usually makes a larger support burden on the parent company. And… yeah.
So most tech youtubers aren’t touching this with a ten foot pole. And LTT have a long history of spewing complete bullshit. Either people worship Linus for “not being afraid to cover a topic” or get angry and they get publicity for “another hot take”.
And basically every other tech youtuber just says “I am not at all qualified to talk about this subject”
Eldritch@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
But the issue is that they aren’t going to sit on their hands while other countries/companies catch up. In part because “the semiconductor shield” is real. And also because… it is a LOT of money.
Branching out to other countries is… a choice. And I do hope it means we see more proliferation of skills. Because it is a major get for Intel to convince a Taiwanese engineer to move to Tel Aviv or whatever. It is a much smaller lift to convince someone to move from Arizona to New Mexico. Similarly, this has the potential to get TSMC a lot more in house designers for basically the opposite direction.
But this idea of “Oh, we can all learn. just give us time” is (generally) American Exceptionalism bullshit and a large part of how these incentives and tax breaks are being sold to politicians. Because, barring massive revolutions in processes, TSMC will still be on top even as the rest of the world becomes “competent”. And you can bet they’ll keep their best factories in Taiwan because, again, the semiconductor shield. But it will also mean that, when Xinnie the Pooh and china decide it is worth pissing away their economy to attack, the world doesn’t go back to the stone age. More like the bronze or iron.
Crismus@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I worked in a semiconductor plant. There isn’t any special skill to it. You have a list that you do and nowadays the robots actually do all the difficult work.
In my time, you had to check and calculate by hand the offsets for the lithography machines. Now with it being done in self-contained robots because of the radiation x-ray process, a person just manages the robots.
Also, why isn’t the new Intel plant being built having the same issues with qualified workers?
I personally think it’s stupid to build a high water using plant in the middle of a desert, when the area hasn’t ever monitored the water table.
jwigum@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Finally, someone mentioning the water usage aspect for a plant being built in Arizona. A water intensive/critical process? Sure, set it up in a desert…
Eldritch@lemmy.world 10 months ago
It’s not a choice though. It is an inevitability. The United States foolishly pushed everything off over there. Only now realizing how bad a mistake that was. And how silly it is for nearly all of that sort of product to originate in that region for no real reason. It would have always made sense for those products to be produced closer to the market that they are to be sold in if at all possible. And it has always been possible. There will be factories and Chip Manufacturing in the United States again soon. And yes it’s TSMC’s Choice ultimately whether or not they will be part of it. But it is happening.
To be clear I have a very low opinion of capitalists. And I 100% think that the heads of TSMC will act like short-sighted petulant children and probably screw themselves over in the long term.
And I don’t know where the hell the American exceptionalism BS came from. It has nothing to do with that. Any humans, basically anywhere in the world can potentially learn and be trained to do this. The biggest roadblock is the affordability of the equipment to do so currently. But every major country/region should be pushing right now to build their own ability to produce. Canada United States Brazil, the EU, Russia even, Australia, New Zealand. Especially looking into designing and building their own riskv technologies. It will happen eventually. But how bad capitalists respond to all this will determine ultimately how long they will be relevant.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
The idea of “We just have to put our minds to it” is very much the foundation for American Exceptionalism. Anything we are good at, we are the best at. Anything we aren’t, we don’t care enough about.
As for: capitalism gonna capitalism. Maybe. But keep in mind that the Taiwanese government is the largest shareholder in TSMC. The concept of “the semiconductor shield” has increasingly become a core tenet of the defense against china. Because if it is in the entire world’s best interest that Taiwan not be leveled in a violent assault: World governments are likely to step in.
And, again, the idea that the rest of the world can “catch up” to today is very much a reality. The idea that TSMC is going to sit and wait for everyone is very much not. They are going to pump money into research, development, iteration, etc. Again, barring fundamental shifts in technology, they are going to be dominant for probably decades.
What various nations’ attempts at “catching up” is about is not overtaking TSMC. Part of it is about getting some of that nvidia money. But mostly it is about preparing for being ostracized russia-style or TSMC being a giant crater. We won’t be able to make top of the line computer chips, but we might be able to keep some of our weaponry running.
eatstorming@lemmy.world 10 months ago
You have some good points but I’m not sure TSMC are looking for highly-skilled people to work at their off-site factory. I honestly believe that most, if not all high-skill positions would be filled by Chinese people. They need factory workers to keep the factory running, I seriously doubt they’d expect the US factory to be able to create anything new on its own in the foreseeable future.
But at any rate, your points also show that it’s not just the price at play here.
Lastly, I agree with you regarding LTT. I didn’t mean that they were bringing some insightful new information, just that it was the only place I saw it even being mentioned. I live in mainland China and see how Chinese companies treat employees, that’s where I got my replies from.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Okay, I kind of hinted at this but:
Taiwan is not China. Taiwanese people are not “Chinese”. Please stop mixing the two up. That is the kind of heinous shit that Xinnie the Poo does.
eatstorming@lemmy.world 10 months ago
😂
Factories share some similar characteristics no matter they are in the world. I’ve seen first-hand examples of it in a few countries and second-hand examples in many others.
Even places squarely “first world” such as Japan, South Korea or Singapore have very similar expectations for factory work, such as long hours in exchange for low salary.
You can keep being petulant and attempting to force your opinion on the subject, I’ve said what I had to.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
You had to call Taiwanese people Chinese? Repeatedly?
stigmata@lemmy.world 10 months ago
My understanding is that this isn’t even about making the semiconductors, this is just about building the factory in the first place. In this case, Taiwan’s expertise in making chips means fuck all.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Gamers Nexus recently did a really good video about paying contractors to build out their acoustic testing chamber. In theory, that is just “put foam on the walls” but they go into everything ranging from which spikes are foam versus metal, how cabling and ventilation are run, and even what is under the floor.
And that is where the expertise comes into play. Theoretically, any competent contractor can follow instructions and build a fab. If you ever meet a competent contractor, protect them with your life.
The reality is that TSMC is going to be constantly having to fly out their people to inspect construction work, indicate what needs to be redone, etc. At which point… why are they paying others to do stuff they need to redo anyway?
stigmata@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I don’t understand your example. You don’t just tell someone “Hey, I want an acoustic testing chamber.”
Your “experts” are going to have the plans already made and the contractors build to that spec. The contractors don’t ‘decide where to use metal or foam. Your experts’ building plans should have that already in there, otherwise they aren’t much of an expert.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Have you ever worked with contractors?
Nothing is ever done truly to spec. And you also learn fun lessons about the ramifications of not specifying exactly what size and head screws to use on that cabinet. Every other cabinet said to use zinc plated square maxi-loc head 1.5 inch screws, but this cabinet didn’t specify so they actually used iron phillips head screws because they had extras. Or maybe that is actually a gang box and now you have the problem where there is not enough clearance to have a light switch on each side of a wall.
Now extrapolate that to something where minute differences can completely break processes months or years down the line.
The GN acoustic chamber is a good example of just what kind of thought goes into something like that. And that is caveman shit relative to a fab.
coleandfries@discuss.tchncs.de 10 months ago
This guy’s has no idea what he’s talking about. I’m an EE based in Arizona. I work with a lot of people who used to work for Intel, NXP, On Semi, etc. Semiconductor Fabs tend to have a pretty intense work culture. But from what they tell me, TSMC is on a whole 'nother level, and TSMC can’t pay them enough to put up with it’s work culture and expectations. They have the skills but at the end of the day, for them, family and their sanity is more important.
Are there people who will thrive in such conditions? Absolutely, just like I personally know a guy who thrives working in an Amazon warehouse. However, from my experience, people who want to have families and not have their lives revolve around their jobs are not interest in working for TSMC.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 10 months ago
(To a lesser degree every year it seems) In Software and Hardware design, Intel are the big dogs. In terms of fabs? They are woefully behind TSMC (although, there are efforts to narrow that gap and some of the new tech that has been publicly revealed is awesome).
And that is how it plays out in the field. If folk “aren’t good enough” to work for a big company (whether because they lack skills or, more frequently, don’t want to base their life around matching the corporate profile) they emphasize the bad. I am more on the software side than hardware, but the number of stories about how hellish it is to work at Google and Amazon(‘s software side) are insane. And almost always associated with “I could have gotten a job there, if I tried”. And yeah, there are a LOT of problems. Mostly at the lower level (which is comparable to most startup cultures and why people should REALLY look at “mid tier” companies and orgs to get their initial experience). Once you get to mid career, it is well within the normal range.
Which is more or less true for TSMC. Yeah, it is a factory job and those suck. But if you actually compare it to similar orgs (again, ignoring the hellscape that is Shenzhen and the like), they are generally "roughly average’. Worse in some regards, better in others. And, like I said, that SHOULD be unacceptable that this is “average” but… labor has problems the world around and nobody cares enough to stand up for it.