melpomenesclevage

@melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨i’m not religious. stop trying to force me to be.⁩ ⁨⁨9⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago⁩:
well ‘god’ is a pretty nebulous term. the olympian gods, you can disprove most of them with a satellite photo or a helicopter. the norse gods are a little harder to disprove. the christian god is pretty easy to disprove.

It is true that nobody should have to worry about proving negatives on people’s obviously made up fairlytale bullshit. it is sometimes fun to point out that if you define your god sufficiently, it can be and has been done.

and I would love to not worry about religion, but im queer and live in the united states, so I need to be pretty on my toes about that shit if I don’t want to be raped to death in a very pretty building/strip mall.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Are Autocracies more powerful than Democracies?⁩ ⁨⁨17⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago⁩:
so, every argument in favor of autocracy works based on magical thinking.

autocracies have one point of articulation. it might be a very clever point of articulation, but there is only one of them. simply meaning: it’s very hard to govern a diverse group-culturally, geographically, or otherwise- with the orders of one guy. then you have to rely on other people to actually carry out those orders, to interpret them at various levels down to, say, putting bricks on top of each other or shooting dudes. which means they always have to act in deference to an imagined version of this one guy. why would they do that? how do they feel about that? how fucked in the head do they have to get to reliably execute his orders pretty much as he would wish them, even assuming that isn’t regularly a terrible fucking idea?

now, you can solve this by giving the people under the autocrat a lot of autonomy. say, “hey army, go conquer this place” and give the army resources and have them go do that, with no more interference from the autocrat. now that’s no longer the autocrat’s accomplishment. now you have to count on the loyalty of all those now battle hardened officers, from captains to generals/admirals, to not think they’re better leaders than the autocrat. and they probably have the loyalty of all their troops, who just either won a war, or got their asses kicked in a nonsense war they had to fight but could not have won. autocratic armies, for example, tend to be a lot more brittle and a lot more reliant on rigid ineffective command structures than democratic armies. but it’s not just war-everything is like, that, everyone has to be controlled by pissy political maneuvering at all times, so they don’t try to be the autocrat and just kill the last guy. but it gets even more complicated! see, near the end of world war one, and there’s a lot of argument that this is the thing that caused the end of world war one, there was a new (well, resurrected from one particular group in ancient greece) military doctrine: that power should be devolved (put lower on the power structure) as much as possible, with more tactical and operational decisions going to people of lower ranks. this worked ridiculously well. but this also means there are more people practiced at giving orders and keeping loyalty in your military. which is very very dangerous to an autocrat, especially if those people are pretty good at war/killing.

the core concept of democracy, and one that neoliberalism absolutely does not buy into, is that if a society is clearly in everyone’s best interest, and stays egalitarian enough, with nobody totally left behind and everybody given at least a chance, then nobody will try to fuck with the system too much, and anybody who does will be dragged out into the street and made an example of by just about everyone around them. and this, to a shocking extent, does actually seem to work as long as it’s applied. egalitarian societies with a less focused power structure do seem more resilient on average against power struggles and the regular shocks a civilization might suffer. the problem is they get fucked up and less egalitarian over time, because nothing is stable, humans are complicated, and entropy is a bitch.

like, armies. okay, so, which is better, a huge conscript army, or a small core of focused professional-by caste(knights! jannisaries! etc!) or volunteer(think the american system)-soldiers?

you might think this is a question of ‘lots of barely competent soldiers’ vs ‘a small handful of badass operators’. and that factors in, kinda, but it’s not actually the main difference. it’s loyalty, and how your society reacts to the routine costs of war. who comes back from war trained and capable of fighting the government? who suffers at home when half your army gets killed in ten minutes because you did a whoopsie, or the people you were fighting were awesome, or luck just wasn’t on your side? who sees spoils and plunder? if you’re fighting a defensive war against an aggressor with genocidal war aims, a conscript army actually works pretty well, with very few down sides. if you’re fighting an obviously nonsense imperial boondoggle, using conscripts is a good way to get your entire ruling class beheaded.

it’s all complex as fuck, and it’s all weirder than you would think. generally though; a more egalitarian society, where decisions can be varied and adaptive, without deference to some dipshit in nuremberg/constantinople/versailles, is more adaptive, more stable, and more functional.

that said, there are different things that make these societies work. autocracies are most stable when the populace is stupid, xenophobic, and stratified enough that when someone in the mid levels of power fucks people over at the king’s explicit orders, the peasants can say “damn I bet if the king/fuhrer/presidentforlife knew about this, he’d fucking hang the bastard”. democratic egalitarian societies are most stable and functional when the populace is educated, informed, and empowered.

in practice these power structures are never quite as a binary. the anthropologist david graeber did a lot of really cool work on this. ‘on kings’ which he co-wrote with marshal sahlins and ‘the dawn of everything: a new history of humanity’ which he co-wrote with the archaeologist david wengrow, are fucking great reads. read them instead of my inchoate text wall; I’m delirious as fuck right now.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨i’m not religious. stop trying to force me to be.⁩ ⁨⁨52⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago⁩:
you can’t prove that no god exists, but there are a lot of proofs that the christian god cannot possibly exist.

and it’s important to remember: a christian is only one god less atheist than you. they need to prove zeus, shiva, quetzocoatl, and loki don’t exist or their religion is just nonsense.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
because murdering truth is not good for science. fascism is not good for science funding. researchers use search engines all the time. academia is struggling with a LLM fraud problem.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨YSK: That nazis Don't Actually Believe in Free Speech⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
the conflation of ‘normal’ with ‘okay’ is sickening to me. unfortunately, this is normal now.

and that should set off fucking air raid sirens in every single person’s head.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨YSK: That nazis Don't Actually Believe in Free Speech⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
yeah, I can’t say ‘libertarian communist’ or people will be like ‘do you mean ephebophile communist? how does that even work?’.

they have to steal our names for shit, because they always do horrible shit under their own.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨YSK: That nazis Don't Actually Believe in Free Speech⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
laws will never protect the people who need it. every community should be on the lookout for this shit. everything should turn against you when you do a fascism.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨YSK: That nazis Don't Actually Believe in Free Speech⁩ ⁨⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
christianity, since the roman empire adopted it at the very least, has been mostly a tool of appropriating warm fuzzy feelings and directing them towards a king.

capitalism was always been into lack of competition. it’s not about markets, that’s a more modern bullshit invention. it’s about valuing ownership over labor. caring about the nobility rather than the peasants’ labor, but with more contrivance.

mood on the free speech.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
it’s a known nazi dog whistle, dude.

I don’t know how much time you’ve spent around or in the milleiu of silicon valley, but there’s a LOT of fascist shit there. all the major funders of this technology are literally fascists. many of them sig heiling nazis, or assholes who talk openly about the need for a fuhrer/king. this is not secret. one of them, without this technology, has helped multiple far right governments into power, aided multiple genocides, and turned all of your older relatives into nazis.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
im skeptical but open to that. it’s just that these models are pushing pushed into literally everything, to the point they’re hard to avoid. I can’t think of another kind of specialized lab tool that has had that done. I do not own, nor have I ever owned, a sample centrifuge. I don’t have CRISPR tools. I have never, outside of academic settings, opened wolfram alpha on my home computer. even AUTOCAD and solidworks are specialist tools, and I haven’t touched any version of either in years.

because these models, while not good for anything anyone should ever actually want outside a lab setting, are also very very good for fascism. they do everything a fascist needs to, aside from the actual physical killing.

and I don’t think the level of development and deployment that these tools get, along with the wildly inflated price of the hardware to run them (or anything else) and death of web search, the damage to academic journals, etc, is a net benefit. even to specialized researchers who have uses for specialized versions of them as the statistical tool that they are. certainly not to the fields over the long term.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
fun how you didn’t respond to a single one of my points. because you can’t.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

WTF

okay then. you tell me what these models are. at a technical level. how they work. what do they actually DO? do you know? are you just shilling? can you cite any sources? I’ll show you mine of slightly better quality, if you show me yours. don’t be shy, babe. hit me with that academic good-good. don’t worry, im currently bedbound and have (some) journal access.

it’s an easy fight to pick

no it’s not. i’ve been saying this for years, and the constant failure of these systems to have a single god damn utility for the average person while absolutely ruining every part of the internet we used to treasure as they’re shoved into everything in an enshittification push we couldn’t have imagined fifteen years ago is only just starting to convince people. fuck your fascist nonsense.

but the enemy is not there

they literally are. peter thiel’s seqouia capital, elon musk, and every other billionaire, even the less explicitly fascist ones, are shoving this wildly unprofitable technology into everything. they literally lose money on every query, massive amounts of our productive capacity has been dedicated to making the hardware that these run on. countries are having brown outs and water shortages to run that fucking hardware. I actually used to enjoy video games, but I haven’t been able to buy a new graphics card in like a decade. why, if not this? if peter thiel is not your enemy, then you are either ignorant, or your are my enemy. if elon musk is not your enemy by march of 2025, then you either just woke up from a very long coma, or you are my enemy.

something useless

then why are we putting so many fucking resources towards it? you don’t see me fighting against minecraft or fucking roblox. im not ready to riot about adobe’s subscription model. I have a closet full of pretty clothes that are wildly impractical in my current climate.

wasted of resources and spirit

feels like it sometimes, when people shill for this crap day and night, but none of them ever seem to know what the shit you’re talking about.

the true enemy, they have been oppressing you since before electricity

who is ‘they’? because we both agree that people have been largely oppressed since before electricity, but i get the feeling that when you say that, you mean ‘the jews’ and not ‘the parasitic nobility who used them as a middleman to get around a technicality to do something their religion explicitly forbade while giving them a sacrificial firewall they could slaughter every few decades in a good pogrom whenever the peasants got too upset about being exploited, plus their modern counterparts’.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
A lot of systems we have already made are super fucked up. this is true. a lot of them were designed to fuck shit up, and be generally evil. we do that sometimes.

these systems only serve to magnify them. see, there’s been a massive marketing push is to call these things “artificial intelligence”. they’re not. they tell you it’s all to complex to explain, but type something on your phone. no, really, do it. like a sentence or two. anything.

you just used the small easily comprehensible version of a large (thing) model. the problem is, as you try to scale complexity on these, both accuracy and compute resources grow exponentially, because it’s literally the same kind of algorithm as your software keyboard uses to autocorrect, but with a bunch of recursion in it and much larger samples to reference every time someone hits a key.

there are some philosophical implications to this!

see, there is no neutral. there is no such thing as a view from nowhere. which means these systems are not. they need to be trained on something. you don’t just enter axioms. that would be actual AI. this, again, isn’t that. these are tools for making statistical correlations.

there’s no way to do this that is ‘neutral’ or ‘objective’. so what data do you think these tools get fed? Lets say you’re a bank, let’s say you’re wells fargo, and you want to make a large home-loan-assessment model. so you feed it all the data from your institution going back to the day your company was founded. back in stagecoach and horse times.

so you have names of applicants, and house statistics, and geographic location, and all sorts of variables to correlate and weigh in deciding who gets a home loan.

which is great if your last name is, for example: hapsburg. less good if your last name is, for example: freeman. and you can try to find ways to compensate, if you want to. keeping in mind that the people who made this system may actively want to stop you. but it’s possible. but these systems are very very good at finding secret little correlations. they’re fucking amazing at it. it’s kind of their shit. this is the thing they’re actually good at. so you’ll find weird new incomprehensibly cryptic markers for how to be a racist piece of shit, all of which will stay within the black box and be used to entrench historical financial bigotry.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
you’re not gonna get one.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

a reflection of who is in charge of it

not even that. it’s an inherently more regressive version of whatever data that person feeds it.

the two arguments for deploying this shit outside of very narrow laboratory uses, where everyone was already using other statistical models.

A. this is one last grasp at fukuyama’s ‘end of history’, one last desperate scream of the liberal order that they want to be regressive shit heads and build the abdication machine as their grand industrial-philosophical project, so they can do whatever horrible shit they want, and claim that they’re still compassionate and only doing it because computer said so.

B. this is a project by literal monarchists. people who wish to kill democracy. to murder truth and collaboration; replace it with blind tribalistic loyalty to a fuhrer/king. the rhetoric coming from a lot of the funders of these things supports this.

this technology is existentially evil, and will be the end of our society either way. it must be stopped. the people who work on it must be stopped. the people who fund it must be hanged.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Surprise! People don't want AI deciding who gets a kidney transplant and who dies or endures years of misery⁩ ⁨⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
AI would be fine. we do not have artificial intelligence. full stop. none of the technologies being talked about even approach intelligence. it’s literally just autocorrect. do you know how the autocorrect on your phone’s software keyboard works? then you know how a large language model works. it’s exactly the same formulae, just scaled up and recursed a bunch. I could have endless debates about what ‘intelligence’ is, and I don’t know that there’s a single position I would commit to very hard, but I know, dead certain, that it is not this. turing and minsky agreed when they first threw this garbage away in 1951-too many hazards, too few benefits, and insane unreasonable costs.

but there’s more to it than that. large (whatever) models are inherently politically conservative. they are made of the past, they do not struggle, they do not innovate. you cannot have social progress when decisions are made by large (whatever) models. you cannot have new insights. you cannot have better policies, you cannot improve. you can only cleave closer and closer to the past, and reinforce it by feeding it its own decisions.

It could perhaps be argued, in a society that had once been perfect and was doing pretty well, that this is tolerable in some sectors, as long as someone keeps an eye on it. right now we’re a smouldering sacrifice zone of a society. that means any training data would be toxic horror or toxic horror THAT IS ON FIRE. this is bad. these systems are bad. anyone who advocates for these systems outside extremely niche uses that probably all belong in a lab is a bad person.

and I think, if that isn’t your enemy, your priorities are deeply fucked.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Council housing when?⁩ ⁨⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
uh huh. I think the value of stuff should go to the people who made it, who can, individually or as (a) group(s) maintain their own fucking tools. or towards a broader project of building a society. I don’t think concentrating wealth or some edgelord bullshit about greed being good are sustainable healthy or sane ways to structure distribution of resources in a society.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Council housing when?⁩ ⁨⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:
because capitalism needs to function like cancer. shit’s built on old imperialist logics, where you must always be claiming more. red queen’s race bullshit. or cancer; pick your metaphor.

it must be profitable because while productivity increases, due to imperial conquest and advancing technology, the profits of the owning classes (remember; this is the literal definition of capitalism-value being produced by owners rather than workers. yes it’s insane, they are insane, this system is insane.) must also increase.

the fact the working class have no more to squeeze from just means we get closer and closer to slaves, which is maybe intentional, maybe just a cool bonus for them.

there’s a cool poem that explains it. check out part 2 poets.org/poem/howl-parts-i-ii
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Council housing when?⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
no, and they’re eager to, but I think if they ever tried to not, things would go badly. that’s bad for the market and drives down everyone elses profits. there would be a lot of solidarity against them by the class of people that own the police.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Council housing when?⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
capitalism is the idea that value comes from ownership, rather than labor. landlording is just the purest expression of capitalism.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Fucking leeches⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
they’re trying really hard to believe it, and seeing others struggle to achieve it validates them. they want to believe. they need to believe. but some part of them doesn’t, or it would be kept on the down-low.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨MAGA Republican Logic⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
honestly im coming around on white genocide the past few months. kill the anglo, save the man.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨MAGA Republican Logic⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
yep. death to america, comrade. may the ashes of the empire birth something worth the fucking space.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨MAGA Republican Logic⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
yes, a terrorist group founded by bitter defeated enemies of america whose whole ethos is oppressing specific groups because they can’t cope with the fact they lost is the same as a group of people sick of watching their friends get murdered trying to make that not happen as much.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Fucking leeches⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
it’s about suggesting that the social order that propped you up and elevated you basically arbitrarily based on birth is a reason you’re cool, and not just some shit that happened. none of this is about actually helping anyone. if they actually believed this shit from the bottom of their hearts, breathing a word of it would be fucking stupid.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Controversial question⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩:
I wouldn’t know; I’ve never been invited to one.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Controversial question⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:
maybe you should get on fucking board then. why didn’t you vote for delacruz? she would have been electable if you had voted for her.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Controversial question⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:
fun fact: hitler said that you should read not to learn what the author intended, but to confirm what you would like to believe, only ever seeking evidence to confirm views you already hold.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Poor guy⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:
in school? no; that would be communism. my teachers would have been crucified.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Controversial question⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:
it’s equal parts frustrating and satisfying. a lifetime of cassandra, and no recognition when I finally get to scream “I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!” at the top of my lungs about everything, because still nobody wants to fix it and I’ve got nothing better to do.