Comment - FBXL Lotide

Comment on PWM resolution for switch mode power supplies.

litchralee@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

In the context of DC/DC converters, I don’t know if there’s a specific name for the regulation precision. But analogizing from op amp designs, I think a reasonable term would be “gain”. This is because the objective of the regulation mechanism is to apply a change which brings the output voltage back to some target.

If the output has moved away from the target by -10 mV, then the objective is to adjust the output by -10 mV. But this cannot happen in instantaneous time. The feedback loop delay necessarily means a small lag. But even after the lag, if there is insufficient gain, the output might only be able to move -2 mV per feedback cycle. So it would take 5 cycles to return to the target.

By adjusting the PWM frequency, you might be able to reduce the length of time for each feedback cycle, so doubling the frequency might mean you can now move -4 mV/cycle. But in exchange, there is less precision. So rather than -4 mV/cycle, it now might be -8 mV/cycle.

Doing this for two cycles means the output voltage is +6 mV. So the next cycle would try to correct with -8 mV, which brings the output to -2 mV. And so on.

A higher frequency with reduced precision has resulted in an output that will “wobble” more, but it will indeed converge faster toward the target, when dealing with larger deviations.

A circuit without load that is statically stable will maintain a target voltage indefinitely. Applying a static load to this circuit will cause a temporary deviation, a subsequent correction, and then it’ll maintain the target voltage indefinitely. But applying a dynamic load means this process is repeated over and over. That is to say, dynamic stability is a continual transient condition, and so the analysis is very much related to what happens in a step transition: how a regulator reacts when going from stable to perturbed.

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xthexder@l.sw0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
I think in the context of a switching power supply, this is just called voltage ripple. Generally it’s measured as the amplitude and frequency of the noise relative to the target voltage.

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Machinist@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Gain bandwidth seems to be really analogous to what I’m trying to figure out. If I can’t find a version that is more digital/pwm specific: it will probably be easier for me to figure out what minimum resolution I need experimentally.

I’m looking at a constant frequency, variable duty drive as that seems the simplest. Also, the higher I can get the frequency, the less ripple I’ll have to deal with. However, there’s nothing really stopping me from doing variable frequency.

The timer I’m using is TCA. I haven’t tried it yet, but it allows buffered register changes. I.E. the registers where I’m setting my duty and period can be updated in sync with the waveform. So, in theory, I can vary my waveform frequency and duty cycle all over the place. I’ll actually be using two of these signals, the other will be for a mosfet in place of the rectifier diode. Dead spacing shouldn’t be any trouble.

I may even be able to use the programmable logic to combine 3 pwm signals into one per channel. I will have the spare internal outputs available.

I’m still kind of studying on this and probably need to draw a picture. Say you have 3 square waves that all have the same period. They are synchronized on the rising edge. 1st signal is 25% duty, second is 50%, and the third is 75%. Depending on what a comparator is reading, your logic selects which signal to output. 50% to maintain and the others to drop or raise the voltage.

So, if your voltage goes out of bounds, high or low, within a single clock cycle your square wave can be adjusted by some amount (25% amounts are just an example.) At the same time, your cpu begins grinding cycles to reset the buffers to adjust everything to a new duty center.

It would probably be a small amount of fast logic adjustment. At a guess, 10% or less.

I apologize if this is confusing and will draw it, if needed.

Any idea what that would be called?

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- xthexder@l.sw0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  I tend to agree with litchralee, changing the duty cycle is usually how these things are done rather than having multiple voltages.
  
  From a control perspective, it’s much easier to turn a digital signal on for 1/4 the time than it is to generate 1/4 the voltage for the full time. But that’s just for basic PWM. If you’re trying to boost the voltage up from your source though, the mechanism for getting a target voltage is a bit different, and relies on “charging up” an inductor and disconnecting it to spike the voltage. I found this reference that seems to have some good diagrams of how it works: analogcircuitdesign.com/boost-converter/
  
  In a boost converter, duty cycle and frequency should be tuned to the inductor so that energy isn’t being wasted after the inductor reaches steady-state and starts acting like a short circuit.
  
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  - Machinist@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    I explained it poorly. The chip has an ADC that can operate in window mode. I. E. when my output voltage jitters high or low out of bound, I can use logic to very quickly effectively increase or decrease my duty cycle. (Actually substitute another pwm signal that is in pnase but with a larger or smaller duty)
    
    5V square PWM from the ATtiny goes to a gate driver capable of several amps at 5V, that gate driver switches a pair of logic level MOSFETs, one of the MOSFETs switching the coil and the other acting as the recitfier. Topology is a synchronus inverting buckboost.
    
    Changing the duty cycle then raises or lowers the voltage.
    
    At the same time, via interrupt or event channel, the cpu starts calculating a new duty cycle and setting the timers. Interrupts may take 100 cycles. Whereas, pwm at 625kHz will have completed an additional three cycles before I can even start to modify the duty from the program.
    
    None of this may matter. Static dumb resistive load, I could probably just about run my MOSFETs off a 555 and not even worry about feedback or regulation.
    
    However, the idea is interesting to me. Quick response regulation with more precise regulation happening as the CPU catches up.
    
    Seems like it would give you a flatter output.
    
    I’ve found when I discover an interesting electronic or programming technique or problem, that usually means I don’t know the name. It’s usually something figured out decades ago and there are references and papers that explain it and consider angles that I didn’t know about.
    
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    xthexder@l.sw0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    I see, yeah that seems like a decent design going through the interrupt. Since your load is static, the responsiveness of your IC interrupts shouldn’t matter too much, but if you were trying to drive a high bandwidth load, then it would start becoming an issue. 625kHz or even the effective 200kHz you have control over would be plenty accurate even for something like audio (which wouldn’t change faster than maybe 48kHz). You can size your output capacitor accordingly so that if you suddenly hook up a bigger load, the voltage drop is acceptable until the IC can catch up.
    
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- litchralee@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  
  the higher I can get the frequency, the less ripple I’ll have to deal with.
  
  Why not just use a low-pass filter to remove the switching frequency? Most regulator outputs are already buffered with a large capacitor to stabilize the voltage, so adding the inductor to form an LC circuit is not exactly adding much.
  
  However, there’s nothing really stopping me from doing variable frequency.
  
  Why make this harder? A constant frequency simplifies the analog design, because you can do the bandwidth analysis once when verifying stability. A feedback loop that is statically and dynamically stable at one frequency might entirely fall apart at another frequency, because the frequency response of the regulator itself or the load may interact with the regulator frequency.
  
  combine 3 pwm signals into one per channel
  
  cpu begins grinding cycles to reset the buffers to adjust everything to a new duty center.
  
  I’m struggling to see how this 20 MHz ATTiny would have so much trouble regulating a DC output that it needs to resort to rather strange techniques.
  
  I mainly have experience on the TI MSP430 and ATMega328p, but both those microcontrollers have a robust PWM feature set that includes fixed waveforms that trigger an output whenever a value in memory is equal to the waveform. Such a value could also be the result of the ADC, meaning that zero CPU involvement is needed to keep regulation. That the ADC and PWM peripherals can be clocked independently from the CPU means this can all be done in the background, so the CPU can just go to sleep.
  
  If the ATTiny3224 doesn’t have such capabilities, you would want to figure out another way to do things in the hardware peripherals – or even getting a different chip – than do regulation in software.
  
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  - Machinist@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    
    Why make this harder? A constant frequency simplifies the analog design
    
    I wasn’t planning on variable frequency, you were speaking to the influence of frequency on voltage output earlier. I just meant that I could vary the frequency without messing up synchronization of the waves. I.E. I can produce two square waves of arbitrary duty and frequency up to 625kHz. The higher the frequency, the less resolution I have, however.
    
    Anyhow, the output will be filtered with at least some fat caps. My load is a static resistance (heating element). I could probably drive this thing with a 555.
    
    As far as I know, the Atmega328, at least, can’t use the ADC to bypass the CPU and directly set the timer registers. The ADC can throw an interrupt and then the CPU sets the timer. When your pwm frequency is sub 100kHz, there is plenty of time to change the duty.
    
    I don’t know that I will need to vary the duty with logic. It’s just an idea I had that seemed neat. Quick coarse adjustment and then a fine tuned adjustment.
    
    I’m teaching myself about SMPS, and I’m curious. While the final circuit will have utility. I’m really learning how to use a scope, the newer AVRs, and switch mode power.
    
    Everything has switch mode in it now, my vehicles, my arc welder, every chunk of electroincs pretty much. It’s treated like a black box, buy the chip, follow the data sheet. However, if you want to build or fix one from first principles, good luck. Most approachable reference I’ve found is the DC/DC Book of Knowledge by Steve Roberts. And even it assumes that you’ll mostly be using an ASIC.
    
    Generally, I come up with an idea in electornics or programming that is novel to me, somebody else figured it out decades ago. That’s why I’m wondering what you call the minumum pwm resolution and whatever this fast dumb logic adjustment to duty is.
    
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