Comment on Want a 3D printer in New York? Get ready for fingerprinting and a 15 day wait
okamiueru@lemmy.world 7 months agoBy this logic, you should also have to jump through those same hoops to get things that can be used to create with minimal experience said tools explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds, or: this bill.
Nope. Not my argument in the slightest? Guns are made for it, have hoops for what it’s made for, especially when it’s used for stuff you don’t generally like. Have those be in proportion to that. Conceptually, this should be easy enough to understand, and it just describes the foundation for the argument of what is a “reasonable hoop”, when it comes to “crime prevention”. That’s what’s being discussed here no? I responded to someone arguing that gun owners need to go through “similar hoops”. To which I only called BS on it being in the same ballpark.
Simplified… “What is a reasonable measure, regarding purchase of X, when it comes to what that measure, can help with problem Y.”
Place X=“guns”, and Y=“gun violence”, yeah… I can see some level of hoops making some sense.
Place X=“cards”, and Y=“car deaths”, sure… I can see some hoops there too. But you already have driver’s license.
Place X=“3d printer” and Y=“gun violence”… well… it makes about as much sense as what you’re suggesting. Which is my exact argument. It doesn’t make much sense at all.
So, either you are arguing the same point as me, or you didn’t get my point.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 months ago
Not your point, but why don’t you like self defense? Or IDPA, USPSA, Skeet (lol), Cowboy Action, Biathlon, Hunting, or any other shooting sports?
Tbf, even in this country, guns are used far more for those things than harming others (self defense included, as while it harms others it is necessary to do so in those instances to prevent death or great bodily injury to the victim, which is what justifies use of deadly force to begin with.)
And no I disagree, if the printer allows me to print a hoffman lower at the push of a button, but that same lower would need a background check to be purchased from an FFL, I think they are similar enough to make the comparison. It’s physically impossible to stop the torrents and other ways the .stl files are shared, the only way to do that would be to restrict the device itself. Furthermore a large subsect of 3d printer owners/buyers do so explicitely for the capability to print lowers (And I’m one of them. Of course it is legal for me to do so and I only use them legally, so it’s fine, but still we exist.)
Of course, I think it’s silly as well, but I’m also not in favor of (at least recently/currently proposed) further gun legislation, so…
Yes we have those.
Yes we have those too, NICs checks federally. States decide pointless feature bans or if the poors deserve rights too, and some are more permissive than others, but there are many regulations already.
Actually “ghost guns,” or “3d printed firearms,” have been making more appearances at crime scenes as of late. The front-runner is still straw purchase but I wouldn’t be surprised to see 3d printed lowers outpacing stolen guns within 10yr without even banning sales to inflate that number. Makes just as much sense to restrict 3d printers due to misuse as it does guns, since they are increasingly directly related. OR we shouldn’t punish good guys with a
gun3d printer for the actions of others…There’s a fourth. I don’t believe reducing the number of guns nor 3d printers sold would even reduce crime, as they could instead 3d print a lower, or make a LutySMG, or mill an 80%, or buy a CNC mill, or abandon guns entirely for another weapon like the Boston Marathon. I’m a gun and 3d printer enthusiast. I think the only thing that will actually reduce crime is actually making this country better so less people want or need to commit crimes. Yes it’s harder than just using authoritarian control and violence to make others subject to your will, but also fuck that, I’d rather we do the hard work than take the ineffective “easy way out.”
I just also think it’s silly to think “we need to ban guns because easy to kill with” but not go the step further to “and 3d printers, cnc mills, and home depot, because easy to make the thing that is easy to kill with.” To me it feels a lot closer to “no further legislation needed for either.”
okamiueru@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Two logical fallacies here. Red herring, in that it’s not not relevant to the argument, and a straw-man, because the supposition of me not liking self defense is not stated by me, or implied.
You’d… be surprised to find that this is actually points 1 and 2, with yet another straw-man argument, this time only implied. Perhaps go through my argument again. It isn’t saying a single thing on the restriction on guns. There is a tiny commentary as to that effect, but please don’t confuse that with the argument presented.
Other than that, I don’t see anything else that I need to comment on. Happy to oblige if you do relate it to my argument.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 months ago
This was the part in the comment I responded to where you implied you don’t like what guns are used for by outright stating it. Guns are used for murder in some instances, about 12,000 per year if we’re talking US, but they’re used 100,000 per year here according to harvard for self defense, and while I don’t have a figure of how many times shooting sports happen within the country’s borders I have to assume it’s even higher than that.
So again, now that I’ve pointed out exactly where the “implication” you outright stated is, why don’t you like those things?
Your “tiny commentary” is part of your argument, not only is it there but it informs your argument from the outset. Those not in favor of further legislation on firearms don’t often talk about further restricting firearms, nor how something that can very easily make firearms is “actually different.” In fact, most pro gun people use 3d printers as an example of partly why further restrictions would be ineffective at best or abused for maximum bans at worst.
Just keeeep moving those goalposts and avoiding my argument.
You’ll still continue ignoring it, but my point is if restrictions make sense for one they make sense for the other, as “the other” can be used to create the “one.” Just as guns can be used for murder but shouldn’t be, 3d printers can be used to make guns that can be used to murder.
Rather than restrict the items we should make the misuse itself illegal, like how we don’t ban booze but we do ban driving drunk or beating your wife because you’re drunk.
okamiueru@lemmy.world 7 months ago
I see. I should have been clearer. You went from seeing this statement by me:
To then this next reply by me:
And then reading that the it in “Guns are made for it” is referring to crime… and not “sending projectiles at lethal speeds”, and that “when it’s used for stuff you don’t generally like” is something other than “crimes / gun violence”?
I see that we don’t really think in sufficiently the same way in order to have any hopes of a productive conversation. The stuff I’ve written is congruent enough that you should be able to get my point, if you either read it enough times, or ask a friend. To help you along: this doesn’t mean that I expect you to agree with me, but at least you know what it is you would be disagreeing with.
I mean, you… do have to state your arguments in a way that are relevant to my arguments. Which requires you to first understand my arguments. I’m not avoiding your arguments, I’m just ignoring them because they are not relevant to my arguments. I hope you see the difference. Not addressing a red herring isn’t avoiding your argument, it’s simply ignoring something irrelevant to the original premise.
I will not reply to anything beyond this. (Again, this is meant as a courtesy. I don’t want to waste your time). Have a good one.