Comment on UK plan to digitise wills and destroy paper originals "insane" say experts
pimento64@sopuli.xyz 1 year agoWhat can it even cost, at a ceiling? A few hundred thousand a year? I million? Even a hundred million? I expect it’s way less, but even if it’s half a billion, that is pocket change in the first world. If your government can’t afford to write off an expense that miniscule, you live in a failed state.
Are you talking about the cost of digitising? Or the cost of keeping paper records?
Because there’s more to this than simply how expensive is the format that we keep them in. There’s also how quick and easy it is to produce, to search, to share, to update. These are all positives when information is digitised that can’t be done if your will is a piece of paper forgotton underneath your bed.
The cost of keeping paper records. Doing anything but keeping them is crackhead behavior, it’s like ripping copper pipes out of your walls and selling them to keep your electricity turned on. A society has failed if it reaches that point. I agree there’s more to it than expense, such as having a secured original that’s much more difficult to forge.
Doing anything but keeping them is crackhead behavior, it’s like ripping copper pipes out of your walls and selling them to keep your electricity turned on. A society has failed if it reaches that point.
I’m sorry but this wildly over simplifying the issue to the point that the copper pipe analogy and hyperbolic language isn’t useful. I respectfully hard disagree with this characterisation for the reasons I’ve explained in my other reply.
Putting a will (or anything other legal documents) on paper must have seemed totally natural hundreds of years ago but at some point we need to accept that we have different needs for these documents and different ways of capturing them.
I totally agree with you about security. That should be a principle in all of this. But that shouldn’t constrain us to recording on paper. If security is paramount then design a system whereby you can verify the veracity and authenticity of the digital document and create secured controls around their handling - hint these systems already exist today. Tampering and theft is certainly an issue but realistically so is it if you still had paper. It’s not uncommon for paper to burn, I have been told 😉.
Any system is fallible, but that shouldn’t mean we remove it from consideration.
But that shouldn’t constrain us to recording on paper.
If you’re going to argue with me, spend less time on smug pontification and more time making sure you actually know what my point is.
That money can be put to better use though, no?
Why? Better in what sense? Better for whom? I think spending the money on ensuring that paper records are preserved is worth it solely because it monkeywrenches tampering and fraud, so diverting that money would always be worse no matter what it goes to. Money spent on maintaining public parks would be better spent on curing cancer, does that mean we defund parks? Money spent on a necessity is not a waste just because there are other necessities.
Also, even assuming you’re right, who cares? I just spent $1.50 on a cup of coffee. That money could have been put to better use, but it wasn’t, and it doesn’t matter, because it’s $1.50. This was my original point, functional states don’t have to even think about this cost, they can literally afford to forget it.
Yeah, I hear you and I’m not averse to spending money on things that don’t bring “direct” value. I fully believe that historical documents are important.
What I’m weighing it against is this: Governments have a fixed annual budget. It’s costing 4.5M a year to keep those documents. As the number of wills increases over time, so will the cost so there has to be some kind of cutoff point. Given that fixed budget (for example) how many homeless people could be housed versus the downside of having the documents stored in digital format (and it is a downside compared to having the original).
When you have a fixed budget, every penny you spend has an opportunity cost.
And of course I acknowledge that the budget could be increased in ways that allow for the originals to be saved while taxing the ultra rich more to pay for it. The current UK government is unfortunately not going to do that.
It’s costing 4.5M a year to keep those documents
I cannot stress this enough, that is nothing. You’re hand-wringing over an amount of money that falls under the scope of a rounding error in any first-world country’s budget. If you want to talk about proper use of resources, a properly-functioning legislative body shouldn’t even be able to afford to think about it, let alone discuss it, they should be dealing with a full session’s-worth of projects that cost 100—100,000 times as much. If you want to talk about proper use of the taxpayers’ money, it doesn’t involve elected officials derelicting their actual duties to hem and haw over something that costs under $50 million on the national scale. For a government to have taken any action on this at all is a greater wastage than any potential savings. Seriously, imagine being paid by the public to ensure things are run properly, and then spending your time on the clock discussing whether or not the government should save $4.5M per year by switching brands of floor wax in all of the public schools. People have been tarred and feathered for less.
Academics have already run those numbers. It’s already a decided issue among those who will actually do the preservation what the preferred method is, for which purposes. And no one is saying you can’t have multiple purposes or preserve multiple formats, (in fact, that, too, is preferred) except those arguing cost, who, like they do with climate change, want to ignore established science.
Meowoem@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
So you’re saying that governments should waste tax payer money on something that has no real benefit just because it can?
I guess you also want to keep them longer than 150 years?;I mean it would be crack head behaviour to throw them out right? Why not convert the whole country to warehouses and store every document ever made?
They’re just old legal documents, interesting to have a copy for future generations but in no way worth the huge waste of money storing them would be.
pimento64@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Stopped reading there.
No. I’m saying what was in my comment. The right interpretation for what I say is the one I already gave you.