Comment on [Discussion] 10 Fantasy Anime With Better Worldbuilding Than Most Movies
arschflugkoerper@feddit.org 2 days agoHonestly I get that people are turned off by Mushoku Tensei. I think being an isekai is the least of its problems.
I personally really like it but you have to be able to deal with how uncomfortable the MC is.
I think it’s both because I’ve seen people also dissing Ascendance of a Bookworm, simply for being an isekai. Even if its worldbuilding is extremely detailed and well-thought, like:
And it does those really well IMO.
That said, I do agree with you that Mushoku Tensei also puts people off because of the main character; probably more than for being an isekai.
Quotes of the prologue of the first LN, plus comments
>I was a nice guy, but I was on the heavy side, didn’t have good looks going for me, and was in the midst of regretting my entire life. >My brash behavior around the house hadn’t won anyone over. I was the sort of guy who’d bang on the walls and floors to get people’s attention without leaving my room. He’s a “nice guy”, hated by his looks. Sure. Totally not hated for his behaviour. /s >I’d only been homeless for about three hours. Before that, I’d been the classic, stereotypical, long time shut-in who wasn’t doing anything with his life. And then, all of a sudden, my parents died. Being the shut-in that I was, I obviously didn’t attend the funeral, or the family gathering thereafter. Lives off his parents, can’t be arsed to attend their funeral. >my older brother, the one with a black belt in karate If his brother achieved something, it shows the issue is not simply “his family was bad”. >What the hell had I even done wrong? All I did was skip out on our parents’ funeral so I could spank it to uncensored loli porn. He is not just a paedophile: he’s a paedophile NEET who gives no shit about his family and is completely nonchalant about it.
I’m quoting the LN but the anime does follow fashion.
At least for me it’s clear why Mushoku Tensei does this: it goes out of its way to represent the main character’s start as the rock bottom, because it helps to deliver the theme. MT’s theme is *“persevere and try to become a better person, regardless of your failures; it pays off” — and if even scum like Rudeus can do it, the reader (who’s likely better as a person than Rudeus, it’s hard to not be) can do it too.
His attitude towards his family in the LN volume 12 (second half of the second season) shows that rather well IMO. In no moment the reader is told “Rudeus has changed! He is not the same as that Earthling, he’s a better man!11one”. But his actions show he cares about his isekai family in a way he never did about his Earthling one, and yet they feel natural because he has been becoming a better person over the course of the years.
Spoilers from LN volume 12 / s2 part 2
* Before: bashes floors/walls to communicate because he can’t be arsed to speak with his Japanese parents * After: loses an arm saving his isekai mother * Before: busier masturbating than attending his JP parents’ funeral * After: pays respects to his isekai father’s grave, telling it [the grave] he was an awful son, for doing far less than he did to his JP parents * Before: shows clear disdain towards his Japanese siblings * After: cares deeply about Aisha and Norn * Before: NEET, completely irresponsible, cares only after his computer * After: raising a family, not just a daughter but also his sisters
From that, you can go two ways, I think. The first one is to accept the MC is shit trying to become less shit, and enjoy the story and worldbuilding. The second one is to skip it; I don’t blame anyone for doing it, if they want a more relatable main character, I think different people want different stuff and that’s completely fine.
Additionally there’s a third way: some people instead lie / bullshit / assume that the work defends NEET-dom, or paedophilia, or not caring about your parents. I think it’s lack of basic media literacy.
Sorry for the wall of text!
NineSwords@ani.social 8 hours ago
More about the “Quotes of the prologue of the first LN, plus comments” spoiler:
spoiler
It’s not just uncensored loli porn. It got censored in the LN from spy cam footage of his niece in the shower (the main reason why his brother gets so violent). In the anime adaptation, you can actually see that they have gone back to that plot point. Image The Redundancy Chaper 25 make this canon again in the LN run: >I had brothers and sisters. Brother was married already. And had kids. Two of them. Both girls. They look different from Norm and Asia. They’re Japanese after all, but they shared in their innocence. Brother’s house and my house (that is, our parents) are close by, so they’ll stay over often. Along with his wife and kids. I took advantage of that. Set up a hidden camera in the bath for my niece. In other words, I took voyeur shots. And here are some more choice quotes from the LN: > Underage. Scornful eyes. Socially awkward. That right there was the trifecta. She was perfect. I wanted her to be my bride. > Of course, it didn’t hurt that my teacher was a junior-high-aged girl at the budding edge of sexual maturity. That was kind of an awesome situation. In my old life, I could have gotten off to that mental image in three pumps. When talking about Sylphie: >So why couldn’t I just stay here with Sylphie until we were old enough to get by on our own? Sounded pretty good to me. We’d grow up together…and she’d grow up into my perfect woman. Hikaru Genji style, baby! Gweheheh. Hikaru Genji fell in love with a 10-year-old, kidnapped her when her guardian died, raised her, and then married her. > …Crap! No. No. Bad thoughts. Bad thoughts. >What happened to the whole ‘oblivious’ thing, buddy? You’re getting way too far ahead of yourself. >Hm. Well, that said… there’s nothing in the rulebook that says an oblivious protagonist can’t brainwash their childhood friend, right? >Gah! What am I thinking?! But… ugggh. >The girl was only six years old. She was clearly very fond of me, but she wasn’t capable of feeling romantic love yet. >So, uh… yeah. Let’s put all that on hold. >For how long, though? Now that was the question. Did I need to wait until she turned ten? Fifteen? Even older…? >What if she ended up hating me for wasting her time? >Her affection meter was at max for now, but there was no guarantee it would stay that way forever. Could I live with myself if it dropped to zero? >No. Hell no!!! I’m a man who knows my limits, damn it! >Seriously, she’s so soft and warm and fluffy! And she smells so freakin’ good! She’s baring her soul to me right now, and I’m supposed to just sit here slack-jawed?! That’s so messed up! We both know how we feel, so we should just take this to the next level! >Why force myself to waste precious time? Why not just admit I made the wrong call?! >That does it. I’ve decided! I’ll make her into my perfect girl! >I’m…I’m oblivious no more, Sylphieeee! About the mental age argument you sometimes hear people make to excuse his actions: >I had to keep in mind that, while I might have been a jobless high-school dropout, I also had the mental age of a person in his midthirties. I could do this! >But now I knew all of my missteps. With all the knowledge and experience from my past life, I could finally do it. I could finally live life right. >A man more than a decade my junior had gotten married, had a kid, and was now struggling with how to raise him. Given my thirty-four-year-history of indolent joblessness, you wouldn’t think I’d be able to outdo him at much of anything. And in LN3 the Man God is directly addressing his mental image of himself: >Well it’s not just a dream. I’m speaking directly into your mind right now. Hard to believe your mental image of yourself is so different from your body… Some more quotes from later on when he is supposedly be all changed: >Don’t tell me this guy is a true-born lolicon who somehow witnessed Julie doing something perverted. I mean, the two of us might have something in common then, but I definitely don’t want him coming anywhere near my daughters in that case. That’s from volume 18. Basically, there is a lot of mental gymnastics going on with a lot of people to paint Rudeus as anything other than a pedophile.
I believe in option 3.5: there are too many instances (even outside MC’s actions) in the series where terrible behaviour is normalised, hand-waved, or trivialised as funny, to be just there to build character. Look at Rudeus’ father as an example outside of MC. While MT might not necessarily be a work to defend neets, pedos, cheaters, etc., it is clearly written in a way so that it doesn’t step on those people’s toes. Are they the sole target audience? No, but they are a large part of it.
I’ve also seen an interesting discussion about how much of the author’s personality is reflected in their works.
The anime and WN are a bit more explicit on that, but even the LN is crystal clear on Rudeus being a paedophile. And I think the folks doing mental gymnastics to claim otherwise also lack basic media literacy, just like I criticised the “third way” ones.
In the meantime I find your “option 3.5” fairly reasonable. It’s completely fine to criticise the work for not doing a good job of calling out shitty behaviour, specially in the light of its theme.
Rudeus does mention once that Paul (isekai father) is scum, and that’s why they understand each other, but… that’s it. In the meantime Paul cheats on Zenith (who’s monogamous) with Lilia (who’s employed by Paul, so Paul is in a position of power over her), and gets away with it.
It’s somewhat clear for me that Magonote doesn’t really care too much about social causes, such as the role of women in society. And that he caves in to readers’ pressure a bit too easily. But past that, I don’t know, really.
NineSwords@ani.social 4 hours ago
That part also gets a bit deeper and more disturbing in the WN (I’m not sure if the LN has cut that part or not):
WN spoiler
In the WN Paul rapes Lilia, a fellow student, in the academy and gets kicked out as a consequence. He then starts a family with Zenith. Lilia, on the other hand, somehow did fall in love with her rapist and seeks him out to insert herself into his family, where she knowingly creates a situation where Paul would cheat with her (leaves the door a slit open while masturbating). Once Zenith finds out, they enter the harem route, with the consequences being that Paul has to sit on the floor in the hallway. I remember this written in a way that made it sound like it was slapstick (haha, look at that pitiful man that has to sit on the floor haha). I’m not a prude. Rape happens. Cheating happens, and harem routes are an anime staple. The problem I have with Paul’s story is the message between the lines. If you rape a girl, she will fall in love with you. If you cheat on your wife or are a home wrecker, you will enter the harem route, where everyone is happy. And all that without any bad consequences for the bad behavior. And this was something I’ve seen in all aspects of the series throughout. Sure, bad things happen to people, but it’s as a consequence of unrelated factors instead of their shitty behavior (i.e. the displacement is bad for Paul, but it’s not happening because of his raping and cheating, etc.). In earlier discussions about this, I’ve seen the argument that it is just realistic and that bad actions don’t necessarily come with bad consequences in reality. And while this is infuriatingly true and can’t really be argued against, it still rubs me the wrong way in entertainment, even more so than MC being MC.