Man… seeing Kirk say that line always fucks me up a little. To see this dude who was so against racism and bigotry turn and become the monster? Just shakes me to my core. Same with the Season 2 intro of Picard with that little alternate timeline. Picard as a conqueror? Shivers.
I kind of like it. Like, he's spent his whole life preaching the Federation ideals, trying to be the best he can be, and after all that, it cost him his son. I know that means less for us who only heard about David in TWOK, but watching Strange New Worlds now and hearing him talk about being in a relationship with 'Carol', it actually kind of retroactively hurts, because we know how it ends.
And it wasn't death in battle in a dangerous job that David chose to do, he was murdered by a Klingon saving the life of someone Kirk hardly knows.
He didn't steal the Enterprise and go on a genocidal rampage of Kronos or anything either.
You can't expect the man to be a saint after all that. Sending him to be the ambassador to the Klingons was cruel on Starfleet's part, even if Spock did vouch for him. Totally on point, seeing how they did the same thing to M'Benga, Chapel, Ortegas etc. after the Klingon war. But still. Cruel.
And even after all of that, even after 'let them die', even after becoming the obvious suspect for the assassination of the Chancellor and being sent to Rura Penthe... he never actually DID become the monster. He was still the best of Starfleet.
To be clear, I also like it and I agree with all of your points. My comment isn’t saying that I dislike the scene. It’s that it’s harrowing to see him say that which was presumably why the line was included the way that it was. Just have an emotional reaction to seeing a hero saying something so monstrous.
Was is meant to stem from decades of Klingon encounters plus Kirk’s “advancing” age? It always felt out of place since he’s not shown to be xenophobic otherwise.
As for Picard, if it made you feel disgusted, then they did their job showcasing the facist extreme. But hey, at least we got to see Gul Dukat’s skull!
Was it meant to stem from decades of Klingon encounters plus Kirk’s “advancing” age?
That and Klingons murdering his son which led to the death of his relationship with Carol. Dude went through some shit. I get why he reacted that way, not that it’s good, but I get it. Still doesn’t make it hurt less.
As for Picard… Totally down for Gul Dukats skull, the smug prick, but it was less disgust than abject horror. I mean there is disgust because Fascism Plus was clearly ordered from Ikea but seeing a man I idolized for so long being celebrated for doing horrific things… Sure I know it isn’t the same JL that’s on screen but it still sends me reeling a little bit.
Stamets@startrek.website 1 year ago
Man… seeing Kirk say that line always fucks me up a little. To see this dude who was so against racism and bigotry turn and become the monster? Just shakes me to my core. Same with the Season 2 intro of Picard with that little alternate timeline. Picard as a conqueror? Shivers.
TheMongoose@kbin.social 1 year ago
I kind of like it. Like, he's spent his whole life preaching the Federation ideals, trying to be the best he can be, and after all that, it cost him his son. I know that means less for us who only heard about David in TWOK, but watching Strange New Worlds now and hearing him talk about being in a relationship with 'Carol', it actually kind of retroactively hurts, because we know how it ends.
And it wasn't death in battle in a dangerous job that David chose to do, he was murdered by a Klingon saving the life of someone Kirk hardly knows.
He didn't steal the Enterprise and go on a genocidal rampage of Kronos or anything either.
You can't expect the man to be a saint after all that. Sending him to be the ambassador to the Klingons was cruel on Starfleet's part, even if Spock did vouch for him. Totally on point, seeing how they did the same thing to M'Benga, Chapel, Ortegas etc. after the Klingon war. But still. Cruel.
And even after all of that, even after 'let them die', even after becoming the obvious suspect for the assassination of the Chancellor and being sent to Rura Penthe... he never actually DID become the monster. He was still the best of Starfleet.
Stamets@startrek.website 1 year ago
To be clear, I also like it and I agree with all of your points. My comment isn’t saying that I dislike the scene. It’s that it’s harrowing to see him say that which was presumably why the line was included the way that it was. Just have an emotional reaction to seeing a hero saying something so monstrous.
TheMongoose@kbin.social 1 year ago
Ah yes, fair enough. Proof also that Shatner's acting wasn't as off as everyone parodies it to be.
ummthatguy@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Was is meant to stem from decades of Klingon encounters plus Kirk’s “advancing” age? It always felt out of place since he’s not shown to be xenophobic otherwise.
As for Picard, if it made you feel disgusted, then they did their job showcasing the facist extreme. But hey, at least we got to see Gul Dukat’s skull!
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Stamets@startrek.website 1 year ago
That and Klingons murdering his son which led to the death of his relationship with Carol. Dude went through some shit. I get why he reacted that way, not that it’s good, but I get it. Still doesn’t make it hurt less.
As for Picard… Totally down for Gul Dukats skull, the smug prick, but it was less disgust than abject horror. I mean there is disgust because Fascism Plus was clearly ordered from Ikea but seeing a man I idolized for so long being celebrated for doing horrific things… Sure I know it isn’t the same JL that’s on screen but it still sends me reeling a little bit.