I have read that article and I have found it sorely insufficient at addressing the concerns of the artists who are having to deal with this new situation. The EFF is usually great but I cannot agree with them on this stance.
You speak of “IP holders” and “corporations”, seemingly to give a connotation of overbearing nameless organizations to any attempt at legislation, but you don’t have a single word to say about the independent artists who are being driven out of their artistic careers by this. It doesn’t sound like you even considered what their side is like, just that you decided that it’s “morally right” to have free access to everyone’s works for AI training.
How fair is the “Fair Use” that lets artists get replaced by AI’s trained on their works? Way to often AI proponents argue of current legal definitions as if this was merely a matter of some philosophical mind games rather than people’s lives. The law exists to ensure people’s rights and well-being. It’s not sufficient for something to fit the letter of the law, if we want to judge it as just.
I did read this open letter, although I already wasn’t expecting much, and I can only find it sappy, shallow and disingenuous. They may say that they don’t care about using AI to replicate others’ works, not only that’s not sufficient to prevent it, it doesn’t address all the artists’ works that were still used without permission, attribution or compensation even if they use the resulting AI to produce works that don’t resemble any other work in particular.
We see a unique opportunity in this moment to shape generative AI’s development responsibly. The broad concerns around human artistic labor being voiced today cannot be ignored. All too often, major corporations and other powerful entities use technology in ways that exploit artists’ labor and undermine our ability to make a living.
But this has already failed. AI has already been developed and released irresponsibly. Corporations are already using it to exploit artists labor. Many major models are themselves an exploitation of artists’ labor. These are hollow words that don’t even suggest a way to address the matter.
There is only one thing I want to hear to AI advocates if they intend to justify it. Not legal wording or technical details or philosophical discussions about the nature of creativity, because ultimately they don’t address the material issues. Rather, how do they propose that the artists whose works they relied ought to be supported. Because to scrape all their stuff and then to turn and say they are fated to be replaced, like many AI proponents do, is horribly callous, ungrateful and potentially more damaging to culture than any licensing requirement would be.
Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
It is morally right to have to be able to use copyrighted material for whatever allows people to express themselves and enable the fair free flow of information. Artists are holders of IP in this case, but they are not corporations. Many seemingly want to go down the same path as abusive organizations like the RIAA. They seek to become abusers themselves and hobble people to keep them from participating certain conversations. That isn’t right.
AI aren’t people, they are a tool for people to use, and all people have a right to self-expression and that includes the training of AI. What some people want would give too much power over discourse to a few who have a financial and social incentive to be as controlling as possible. That kind of balance would be rife for abuse and would be catastrophic for everyone else. Like print media vs. internet publication and TV/Radio vs. online video, there will be winners and losers, but I think this will all be in service of a more inclusive, decentralized, and open media landscape.
You simply don’t have to compensate someone so analyze public data. That would be like handing someone a flyer for lessons and then trying to collect a fee because they got good at the same kind of thing you do. They put in all the work, and they do new stuff that’s all their own.
If I can’t use legal wording, technical details, or philosophy, how am I supposed to be able to explain? Your goal seems to be only to avoid or dismiss the complexity, nuance, or validity of any explanation. The best I can do is: It isn’t exploitation to analyze, reverse engineer, critique, or parody. It took us 100,000 years to get from cave drawings to Leonard Da Vinci. This is just another step, like Camera Obscura. We’re all standing on the shoulders of giants. We learn from each other and humanity is at its best when we can all share in our advancements. Calling this exploitation is self-serving manipulative rhetoric that unjustly vilifies people and misrepresents the reality of how these models work. And I never said anyone was fated to be replaced, you’re putting words in my mouth.
Generative AI is free and open source. There is a vibrant community of researchers, developers, activists, and artists who are working on FOSS software and models for anyone to use. There’s a worldwide network working for the public, often times leading research and development, for free. We’d like nothing more than to have more people join us, because together we are stronger.
I understand you’re passionate about this topic, and I respect your feelings. But, I think that you use manipulative language, personal attacks and misrepresenting of arguments to get out of giving any explanation. You have not provided any support or reasoning, and you ignored the ponts and facts I presented. The way you talk to people isn’t fair, and I don’t really feel like continuing this discussion, but thanks for listening.
TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world 8 months ago
To call this simply “analysis” is wildly disingenuous. AI isn’t simply offering data about those works, they are using them to create effective replacements for those works, at expense of those artists’ careers.
You insist a lot of people’s right to self-expression, but restricting some manners of training AI doesn’t mean the people can’t express themselves. Not only they could still use any other tool, they could simply get permission from the creators or use Public Domain works to train.
Why is it having to get permission for using works in AI training considered such a violation of people’s rights? Just because older laws were written without consideration for the way AI functions (obviously)?
We also restrict the use of cameras in certain ways and yet photography is a flourishing medium. In a way one could call a camera an analysis tool too, but I don’t think arguing this sort of technicality is productive.
Still, you don’t seem to consider that the artists driven out of the market by AI will have their capability of expression stifled, simply by not being able to focus on creating.
Because you are using those to argue around the situation of the artists whose work was used, and still you will not offer a single word about their situation. Instead you will call them “abusers” for trying to preserve their livelihoods. I did offer you arguments why the law is lacking, but I’m tired of arguing how human rights take precedent over tools, that comparing AI with human creativity is simplistic and that whatever may be the inner workers of AIs that doesn’t change the material effects of their use. I’m pretty sure I had those arguments with you in particular already.
Which is why I want to get to the point: “What about the artists’ livelihoods?”
Any other explanation that doesn’t address this is lacking a crucial aspect. Considering how much AI had to rely on original works it’s strange that the source of those original works is not even given any consideration.
But back to this again:
See, this is the kind of talk that gets me incensed, and which makes your talk of “manipulative language” ironic and disingenuous. Are you really going to call copying artists’ works in bulk to train an AI “handing someone a flyer for lessons”? Not even the lesson proper, since their work is the reference material? There is no possible way such an analogy could be made in good faith, it reveals a profound disregard for the role of the artists in all this. No surprise you want to call artists seeking to protect themselves “abusers” too. It doesn’t seem to me like the words of someone honestly interested in candid, open-minded and respectful discussion.
Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
You’re ignoring and misrepresenting what I said again so you can just repeat yourself. I’ve already covered all of this. If I explain it for a third time you’ll just do this again.
TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Even though I said I was only interested on your take about a single particular point, you completely disregarded it. Even though I said I had no interest in any other aspect, I responded to multiple of your arguments.
At this point you are saying “you’re ignoring and misrepresenting what I said” as a way to disregard what I said and pretend there are no unadressed aspects. It’s just not true. Ironically, you’re saying that to ignore and misrepresent my words.
To be fair, you made it more than clear that trying to discuss the matter with you is wasted effort.